c/ \ /___\ *** THE OZZY DIGEST, MAY 29 - JUNE 1, 1999 *** |@ @| | V | \\\ |\_/| | ;;; \-/ \ ;/ >< ] "AWOL" Digest members: 1 1 2 (I have enacted a "Three Strikes Law" regarding bounced Digests -- The numbers after the E-mail address indicate how many more Digests before listed members will be unsubscribed.) ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:45:29 -0500 Subject: Cross-eyed Lulu in Oz From: "David F. Godwin" Ruth Berman wrote: >Michael Turniansky: The problem with "mah coal-black Lulu" is (as >Nathan DeHoff and David Godwin commented) partly in describing a >human as like a thing, and so making "Lulu" sound less than human... Thanks for attributing a worthwhile comment to me, but I didn't exactly say that. In fact, I don't even agree with it. It seems to me that "coal-black Lulu" is no more describing a human being as a thing than is "Jeanie with the light brown hair" or "her bosom was white as the hawthorne buds that ope in the month of May" or "from underneath his helmet flowed/His coal-black (!) curls as on he rode," or, more to the point, "I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem." The problem is with the dialect, not the "coal-black," which is why I think it was a hurried and poorly thought-out attempt to fix things that resulted in the change to "cross-eyed." How many children afflicted with strabismus are going to be wounded and have the book spoiled for them by the altered verse? (I know one such child with "lazy eye" who is never going to hear the "cross-eyed" version.) Also, although this is less likely, someone familiar with both versions might assume that the editor meant to imply that black skin color is a genetic defect, or at least made a subconscious association to that effect. >But there's also a rather larger problem in >the dialect, which is not simply a (sort of) accurate transcription of the >US southern dialect, but is also meant to imply an uneducated and/or >stupid speaker, who speaks "incorrect" English, and the song thus >implies that it takes somebody ignorant or stupid to love a Black >woman. The dialect is a rather inept attempt to imitate the black dialect on the "race records" of the time, and the thrust seems to be that "Negroes are demonstrably inferior, though comical, because they talk like this and produce insufferable music like this." In other words, the racism of the song has nothing to do with liking or disliking coal-black, cross-eyed Lulu. Plainly, both the singer and Lulu are supposed to be black, and the dialect (which is not simply Southern) and style of the song make that clear regardless of the adjective applied to Lulu. You can use whatever description you like for Lulu; no one is going to mistake this for a Southern white song. >(after all, the skin of a Black is really a dark brown, not a coal-black -- That depends. ISTR that the Hausa people of Africa, for instance, are very black indeed, and so are their descendents. In fact "coal black" is or should be a matter of pride rather than shame, however pejorative the song may intend it, because it implies that there has been no "dilution of the blood" by intermarriage with whites. I suppose that could be considered racism in reverse, but there is a reason for "black pride." - David G. ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:12:55 -0500 Subject: Oz typography From: "David F. Godwin" Ruth - Thanks for pointing out the difficulty with my quotation marks. I was not aware of it. They are programmed to be curly because I do a lot of work on books, where straight quotation marks are anathema. Unfortunately, the key I use to make straight marks instead of curly ones does not seem to work in my e-mail program. I am not sure what the solution is, unless I just copy and paste the quotation marks used by someone else - or say quote-unquote and resort to circumlocution to avoid using apostrophes. As for the funny character after the middle initial F in my name, it is just a period at my end. I cannot imagine what takes place to alter it into =7F. Let me know if there is anything else strange about -this- message. - David G. ====================================================================== Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:30:36 +1000 From: Gehan Cooray Subject: Ozzy Things David(Hulan): Come to think of it,since _Magic_ implies that Ozma was there since the beginning of time and that she's thousands of years old,it shows that she could NOT have been Pastoria's biological daughter since he wasnt there from the beginning of time. Then she also tells the Su-Dic and Queen Coo-ee-oh that she was with Queen Lurline when Oz was enchanted. If so,Jack Snow's theory seems to be somehwat correct for he says that Lurline gave Ozma to Pastoria when she first enchanted Oz and that Ozma WAS with Lurline at that time. Anyway,wasnt Baum supposed to have been terribly ill during the time he wrote _Glinda_ and _Magic_?. If so,his mind was probably all muddled up and he probably didnt know what he was saying. Anyway,the the story of Ozma sounds too far-fetched when we look through the evidence in the FF. I for one thing dont beleive that Ozma existed since the beginning of time and she couldnt have been with Lurline when Oz was enchanted because she has very faint memories of Lurline. It all may be just a rumour for all we know. Dave: Since you said you were too busy to create the Ozzy Digest Chatroom at present,shall I make it myself and tell you when its done? I think I know how to..... Untill next time! --Gehan ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:51:36 -0400 From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: baum bio? Can anyone recommend a good biography of Frank Baum? Is there a definitive bio? christine gray ====================================================================== Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:54:55 -0500 Subject: From: "David F Godwin" J. L. Bell wrote: >If you want this type of self-help, narrowly defined, you need Vernon >Crawford's FROM CONFUCIUS TO OZ (New York: Donald I. Fine, 1988).... > You might also look for the "Everything I Need to Know I Learned from THE >WIZARD OF OZ" poster, quoting various homilies (from the movie only), if >you really want Oz-based self-help. No, Ozma forbid, I don't _want_ Oz-based self-help. I was merely remarking, as a matter of curiosity, that none of the psycho-spiritual books I looked at was strictly speaking a self-help book. If self-help is not as "narrowly defined" as I made it, then I suppose you could classify the Bible, the Koran, and WWiz itself as "self-help books." After all, the Bible and Koran tell you how to improve your life according to a program devised by an "expert." Don't think you'll find them there at B. Dalton, tho. :) Ruth Berman wrote: >People who worry >that having the Wizard turn out to be a humbug promotes atheism -- >Hmmm. What it really promotes, of course, is scepticism and a habit >of questioning claims to authority. Worrying that the story promotes >atheism sounds rather like a way of trying to stifle questioners. I don't quite understand the "stifle questioners" part. Anyway, the person who suggested this idea to me wasn't worried about it; he thought it was cool. I'm not worried about it either. I just mentioned it as a matter of interest, as a contrast to all the books written from a supposedly spiritual perspective. P.S. I think I may have solved the "special characters" problem. Let me know if this particular posting has any anomalies. March Laumer: For anyone who is interested, Mr. Laumer informs me via e-mail that his books can only be supplied when he is in the U.S. He is now in Sweden and will not be back until early October. - David G. ====================================================================== From: "Doug Torrance" Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 05-28-99 Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 07:58:41 PDT David: >MOPPeT is that the spirit of a member of Lurline's band - possibly her #2 - >was infused into the child of Pastoria and his wife while she was in the >womb, and that Pastoria's wife (Ozette or whoever; I don't like that name >any more than I do Ozroar for Pastoria's father) was herself of part-fairy >descent - though since full-blooded fairies are immortal, and the queen has >never turned up (nor has her absence been remarked, oddly enough), she's >probably not full-blooded. IMHO the fact that Ozma's mother is never even mentioned may point out that perhaps she never had one. Perhaps Pastoria was a bachelor, and then Lurline gave him the de-aged Ozma to be his daughter and future ruler. Doug Torrance _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ====================================================================== From: "Nathan Mulac DeHoff" Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 05-28-99 Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:13:04 PDT Gehan: >Jack Snow does say that Lurline let Pastoria adopt her but perhaps he said >so to show the reason as to why Ozma was a fairy,yet her father wasn't. Is there any indication that Pastoria isn't a fairy? That would explain why the Blankenburg water had no effect on him. In _Lost Princess_, the Wizard states that fairies cannot be made invisible against their will. This doesn't mean that there aren't other beings that cannot be made invisible unwillingly, so that isn't conclusive proof. I can't think of any real proof that Pastoria isn't a fairy, either, though. I suppose that's all for now. Nathan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ====================================================================== Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 18:17:20 -0500 From: davepeterson@icnet.net (Dave Peterson) Subject: wonderful wizard of oz, 1900 Hi Dave I recently came to acquire the two prints that I have attached to this email. (I have reduced them in size to 40% of original, as they send easier that way). These are original color plates (not offset print process, but are chromo-lithographs, according to a lithograph expert I consulted). I realize these are normally referred to as 'color plates', but they were made using the old lithograph method. They are blank on the back side. I framed them up, using archival matting and archival tape. The red border area measures approx. 5x7". I never saw the original book they came from and the old book dealer told me that the lady that bought the text didn't want to pay extra for the color plates, so he kept them for sale separately. From what I have been able to find out, these came from the WONDERFUL WIZARD OF OZ and the artwork is by WW Denslow. His little seahorse logo and DEN are on each one of them. From what I have read of on-line texts, these seem to correspond exactly with text from the Wonderful Wizard of Oz book that was written in 1900. The lithograph expert didn't know which book they came from, but thought as they were original color plates, they were probably worth "about $75 or so" was his words. I have written to Eric Gjovaag and he said he couldnt tell what they were from without seeing them in person. He also tended to disagree with the difference between lithograph and color plates as to how they are defined, but that is neither here nor there. Now that I am done with the background on this, I will get to my question: Was the WWofOZ reprinted a few times between 1900 and 1904, when the second book came out? I know these prints are from the first book, but don't know if they would be considered 'first edition' or not. Also, what do you think they might be worth? [EDITOR'S NOTE: This pics are on my web page at the "Oz Gallery". See my message at the end of this Digest for the URL. Please E-mail Dave privately if you have any info. -- Dave, Ed.] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DAVE PETERSON Editor and Board of Trustees member of VASELINE GLASS COLLECTOR'S INC. SEE OUR CLUB WEB PAGE AT: http://www.icnet.net/users/davepeterson/ ====================================================================== From: CruentiDei@cs.com Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:59:31 EDT Subject: Oz Gehan: In and out of the FF, there are quite a number of theories about Ozma's past and lineage. Most of these can be reconciled with each other to a degree. The Jack Snow theory is clearly your favorite, since you quote it so often. It's interesting that this is the single one that you have latched onto, since it's the one theory that simply cannot be reconciled with any of the other ones. It is truly the odd man out. Ruth and David G: The Ozzy Digest is typically ASCII text, and most e-mail systems are designed only for this. I agree with Ruth and strongly advise against send a text message with any special characters. This includes any ASCII value below 32 and above 126. It is true that 127 (or 0x7F) is a standard character, but it happens to be the backspace, which can confuse some systems. Dave, is there any way that you could alter your digest program to filter out any non-standard ASCII characters and character number 127? David Hulan: The spirit of infusion into Ozma's mother's womb is the theory that I tend to favor. I also like to believe that Lurline inserted a fairy into Ozma's ancestral line in order to coincide with that "long line of fairy queens" statement in _Scarecrow_. Tyler Jones ====================================================================== Date: Tue, 1 Jun 99 10:32:29 CST From: "Ruth Berman" Subject: oziana in oz Robin Olderman: Would you put ordering information for "Oziana" into the Digest? The recent mentions that the 1998 "Oziana" was now available prompted me to look to see if I'd ordered it, and I find that I hadn't. But when I looked around for information on how to order it, I couldn't seem to find a listing. (I found a listing for getting a sustaining-level IWOC membership including "Oziana" and calendar as well as "Bugle," but I don't particularly want to get the calendar, and have already paid for a "Bugle"-level membership.) There are probably others on the Digest who would like to order the 1998 "Oziana" and put in an order for the 1999 issue, if you could put in a note as to price and address where the order should go. J.L. Bell: Hmmm, yes, the "one hand" remark does sound more like an idea of Ruggedo as around 1' than around 3'. Or maybe not, I suppose, depending on how strong Peg is and how much of a load she can pick up one-handed. Ruth Berman ====================================================================== Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 16:38:38 (PDT) From: Dave Hardenbrook Subject: Ozzy Things CHAT ROOM: Gehan wrote: >Since you said you were too busy to create the Ozzy Digest Chatroom at >present,shall I make it myself and tell you when its done? I think I know >how to.... Go for it! :) WEIRD (ASCII) CHARACTERS IN OZ: David G. wrote: >Thanks for pointing out the difficulty with my quotation marks. I was not >aware of it. They are programmed to be curly because I do a lot of work on >books, where straight quotation marks are anathema. Unfortunately, the key I >use to make straight marks instead of curly ones does not seem to work in my >e-mail program. What E-mail program is it? In Eudora, just press the normal quotation mark keys. (Normally it's only in word processing programs in which "smart quotes" are the default.) >I am not sure what the solution is, unless I just copy and >paste the quotation marks used by someone else... (See below.) >As for the funny >character after the middle initial F in my name, it is just a period at my >end. I cannot imagine what takes place to alter it into =7F. As Tyler pointed out, 0x7F (127 decimal) is the hex code for backspace. Tyler wrote: >Dave, is there any way that you could alter your digest program to filter out >any non-standard ASCII characters and character number 127? I've now done that. For you C++/Microsoft Foundation Class gurus, I've overridden CStdioFile::WriteString() so that it filters out non-printable chars. It also converts Microsoft "smart quotes" (hex 0x93 and 0x94) to standard ASCII quotes, so someone may want to send me a post with "smart quotes" to see if it works. BTW, FYI Make_Digest has long put up an "alarm" if someone's message is HTML-formatted, which I then cut and paste by hand into the Digest as vanilla text. (Maybe someday I'll make Make_Digest smart enough to filter all HTML tags.) OZ GALLERY: My Oz Gallery is now online. Go to http://www.mindspring.net/~daveh47/Oz_Gallery.html There you will find some of my Ozzy artwork ( all copyrighted, so *no* stealing! :) ) The aforementioned plates from _Wizard_ are also there, and also Neill's "Slinky Ozma" pic which I am posting in response to a couple of irate E-mails I've received about making Ozma look too...um... *shapely* in my drawings. Just wanted to show that I'm only drawing (no pun intended) upon depictions rendered by the Royal Portraitist himself. :) -- Dave ====================================================================== ] c/ \ /___\ *** THE OZZY DIGEST, JUNE 2 - 10, 1999 *** |@ @| | V | \\\ |\_/| | ;;; \-/ \ ;/ >< ] "AWOL" Digest members: 0 0 1 2 ====================================================================== Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 20:20:03 -0400 From: David Levitan Subject: dmoz search engine just to let you know, there is a new search engine like yahoo at dmoz.org. You may want to submit your site there. -- David Levitan ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:23:04 +0100 From: David Hulan Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 05-28-99 Tyler: >Ozma may have been born before the Wizard came to Oz, since her father was no >longer in contact with anybody. Unless, of course, Ozma's mother carried her >much longer than normal humans. WIth Ozma's comments in _Lost King_, she must >have been active and about for many years before the Wizard arrived. I'll have to check this more thoroughly when we get to _Lost King_ as the BCF; that won't be too long. It's true that Ozma remembers Morrow rather vaguely, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this happened before the Wizard came to Oz. Isn't it possible that Morrow was the original site of Pastoria's imprisonment? Eventually he was moved to Blankenburg, but that might have coincided with Mombi's transformation of Ozma into Tip and her removal to the cottage in the Gillikin Country, not long before Dorothy came to Oz. (Tip seems to be somewhere in the 10-12 age range.) Ozma may have been remembering times when she was very young; I certainly have distinct visual memories that have to date back to before I was 3 years old, though if I hadn't had reinforcement as to my family's moves in subsequent years I probably wouldn't remember anything but the images, as opposed to knowing where they happened. We know the Wizard didn't actually rule all Oz, but only the green area. He wouldn't necessarily have known anything about Morrow down in what later became part of the Quadling Country, though based on _Wizard_ it wasn't under Glinda's rule at the time Dorothy made her first visit. But I may be forgetting some reference in LK; it's been a while since I read it. Dave: >Does anyone have a citation for the later Reilly and Lee reprint >of _Ozma of Oz_... The one featuring the infamous >"Slinky Ozma" on the cover? The "Slinky Ozma" cover for _Ozma_, along with the one of Ozma riding the Sawhorse for _Emerald City_, were both drawn by Neill in 1929. These, along with the interior illustrations in _Yellow Knight_, are the first illustrations Neill did depicting Ozma in fitted clothes that make it clear that she's at least a teen-ager, not a child. My theory, which I've presented before, is that Mogodore's announced intention of marrying her in _Jack Pumpkinhead_ - the 1929 book, but illustration probably completed before Neill redid the 1929 covers for the other two books - convinced him to draw her as of marriageable age. He continued drawing her thus for the rest of his life. David Hulan ====================================================================== From: Ozmama@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:02:06 EDT Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-02-99 In a message dated 6/2/99 9:31:06 PM Central Daylight Time, OzDigest@mindspring.com writes: Ruth: <> _Oziana_ is available for $4.00. Here's the address, according to the mailing I got earlier this week from IWOC: The International Wizard of Oz Club P.O. Box 266 Kalamazoo, MI 49004-0266 This year's issue is, IIRC, 32pp. It contains work by Mike T. (Shaggy Man), Atticus Ganaway, John Bell, David Hulan, and me. It's full of _Digesters_, and it's a solid issue. ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 19:57:10 +1000 From: Gehan Cooray Subject: Ozzy Things Tyler: Jack Snow's theory isnt exactly my "favourite",I'm just saying that it makes scense when we compare it to Baum's theory. I dont want to beleive that Lurline injected Ozma's spirit into Ozette's womb because that wouldnt make her Baum's biological daughter. Ozma's theory is somehwat like the theory of Jesus Christ.....too complicated too. Nathan: Well,maybe Pastoria is half-fairy,half-human even though I doubt it. I beleive that Lurline helped Pastoria when Mombi threw him down the well and that mybe why the water didnt effect him. Doesnt he say that Lurline had visited him? David(Godwin): Well,all living things have to have an end and so fairies will have to die too someday and so its possible that Pastoria's wife WAS a full-blooded fairy. Doug: I know theres no evidence that Ozma had a mother in the FF books,so Jack Snow's theory seems to make real good scense........ exept that Pastoria didnt rule Oz when Lurline came there as he says.In _Cowardly Lion_, Bob up and Notta Bit More find a magic travellers tree which was created somewhere in the 11 hundreds and that would mean that it was created after Lurline came to Oz since she was the one who brought all the magic there. I doubt that Pastoria was alive at that time. And Jack Snow also says that Lurline enchanted Oz about two centuries ago from the time _Magical Mimics_ took place and that doesnt match with Ruth Thompson's evidence either. Anyway,Jack Snow tried to ignore Ruth Thompson's work as much as he could..... Dave: I'll try to create the chat room ASAP. See ya later! --Gehan ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Jun 99 10:14:26 CST From: "Ruth Berman" Subject: bios in oz David F. Godwin: Interesting set of comments on questions of racism in portrayal of dialect vs. appearance. // So the person you met who thought that having the Wizard turn out to be a humbug promoted atheism also thought that promoting atheism is a good thing? Then presumably in that case the interpretation was not intended as a way to stop people from questioning authority. But it's probably a mis- reading of the story to assume that having one authority turn out to be a humbug is a way of promoting the idea that any particular (religious, political, whatever) authority is likely to be a humbug. Revealing the man behind the curtain as a humbug doesn't really suggest a general conclusion that all Wizards are humbugs -- but rather suggests that it's a good idea to consider the possibility of humbuggery when dealing with authorities rather than taking them on face value. I was thinking of the comments that were reported in the papers when the "Wizard" got banned in Tennessee some years back, though, some of which sounded as if the parents complaining about the book were trying to stifle children who might be led to ask questions not easy to answer. Biographically speaking, I suspect that Baum would have been unhappy to think that his books were taken to promote atheism. He didn't care much for organized religions (if anything, with his interest in Theosophy, he would have been happier with the New Age interpretations, boring though the books you described sound), but he did have a set of non-rigid religious beliefs. (I don't mean that to sound as if I think atheism is a bad thing -- just that it doesn't represent Baum's beliefs.) // A thanks to you (and to Dave Hardenbrook) for attention to problems of special characters on some of the email. Christine Gray: A good bio of Baum is "To Please a Child," by Frank J. Baum and Russell McFall, but it is out of print and hard to find. It is sometimes short on dates/details. The Gale Publishing Company in one of their volumes of short biographies of writers has a nice (article- length) bio of Baum by Michael Patrick Hearn. He has been working for several years on a full-length bio of Baum, but that's so far not available. Robin Olderman: You'll probably be answering this yourself, but in case not, I thought I'd mention that the day after complaining that I couldn't find info for ordering "Oziana," I received the new "Oz Observer"/"Oz Gazette" packet from the Oz Club, and with it a set of ordering info for all the IWOC publications. So, for any non-members on the Digest who might be curious to get the 1998 "Oziana" with David Hulan's story -- it's $4 (and "Ozianas" from 1986 on are likewise available at $4/each), plus $3 shipping charge for one item and $1/item for additional items; International Wizard of Oz Club, PO Box 266, Kalamazoo MIK 49004-0266. Ruth Berman ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:45:28 -0400 From: "J. L. Bell" Subject: supply of OZIANAs Ruth Berman wrote: <> And how much motor control and perspective she had in her first minute after being re-animated. Nonetheless, putting all the textual hints together, I think Nathan DeHoff is quite correct that in KABUMPO Thompson thought of Ruggedo as the size of a garden gnome rather than a Nome. That would also help to explain how a rabbit's tunnel would be big enough for the ex-king. Since Ruggedo's activities below the city were secret, and since the only witnesses to them--Wag and Peg--themselves experienced some disorienting growth, we can choose to believe that the Royal Historian probably had limited information and made a faulty assumption. That seems more likely than a real change in Ruggedo's height (as opposed to his girth). Ruth Berman wrote: <> KABUMPO definitely stands in that traditional fairy tale pattern. And like those earlier stories, by depicting psychological transformations as the start of a physical transformation, it can be read to imply that new perspectives aren't enough. Pompa changes how he views Peg Amy and the world, and Peg Amy changes how she views herself. But once Pompa proclaims his fondness for a wooden doll, he never has to marry that doll or even see her again. In other words, it's a challenge to kiss a frog, but a real commitment would be agreeing to wake up next to that frog every morning, reminding yourself that inside he's really quite charming. After seeing Cocteau's BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, Greta Garbo is said to have remarked, "Give me back my beast." That brings up another potential problem with the KABUMPO resolution: What if Pompa actually looks back and prefers Peg as the wooden doll he fell in love with? David Hulan wrote: <> It doesn't say, however, that Ozma comes from a long line of fairy queens *of Oz*. Baum's fairy queens seem to derive their title from their leadership of a band, not from their sole sovereignty over a particular territory (though those bands might be associated with particular forests or other realms). Thus, it seems quite possible to reconcile Snow's account of a king adopting a fairy in baby form with these particular statements. David Godwin wrote: <> But in the "self-help" section we find books that eschew the checklists, self-assessments, and other apparatus that you use to define the genre. Commercial groupings like "self-help" don't match with literary genres because they're defined by what readers go shopping for, not how authors address their topics. For instance, the "self-help" section often contains "inspirational" books not unlike parts of the Bible, except with many fewer words per page. Ruth Berman wrote: <> Robin should give the official word, but I'll mention that after an Oz meeting I find myself with some extra copies of the 1998 OZIANA, containing stories by David Hulan, Atticus Gannaway, Robin, and others. If it's okay with the authorities, I'd be happy to fill orders for any Ozzy Digest member who wants a copy, collecting checks for the club. J. L. Bell JnoLBell@compuserve.com ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:10:22 -0700 From: Steve Teller "Dave L. Hardenbrook" Subject: Ozzy Things Can anyone recommend a good biography of Frank Baum? Is there a definitive bio? christine gray The definitve biography of Baum is supposed to be published next year. Michael Hearn has been working on it for years, but he has told me that it WILL come out in 2000. Until it comes out the Carpenter biography is the best available. Steve T. ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:00:46 -0700 From: "Peter E. Hanff" Subject: Spring 1999 Baum Bugle printed Dear Dave, Please share the word that the Spring 1999 issue of The Baum Bugle was printed three weeks ago and is now in the hands of the mailing service. We now await word from the mailing service on the amount we need to forward to them for postage. We anticipate that the mailing should take place in the next few days. I share this message with you because Bill Stillman, Editor of The Baum Bugle, has worked mightily during his years as editor to get the Oz Club's journal out on time. I think the Spring 1999 issue will be distributed during Spring, but Bill was expecting it to be out earlier in the season than has proved to be the case. All of us owe a great debt to Bill for getting the Bugle out during the right seasons. He has accomplished something that had not been achieved in many years before he assumed the mantle. Best, Peter Hanff ====================================================================== From: "Kenneth R. Shepherd" Subject: Ozzy matters Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:44:15 -0400 Re: Ozzy matters - posts of 5/26 and 5/28 >Ken Shepherd, who used to be a fairly active contributor to the Digest.... >Ken Shepherd's last post to the Ozzy Digest was on Feb. 28, 1998. He used to >do chronology's of the various Oz books. It's a shame that he never finished.... >At least he did all of the Baum 14.... Goodness. If I'd known I was so greatly missed, I would've ... baked a cake? I've been extremely occupied... was married last July, published my first book in August, and started work on my doctorate in history in September. It's been a bit of a struggle to keep my head above water. I've been lurking and reading the Digest regularly, although sometimes I've had to wait some weeks before having the time to catch up with them. Anyway, Tyler, the chronologies for all the FF and some of the apocrypha are in fact completed. I had thought I sent them all to Dave Hardenbrook for posting on his website, but I guess I only sent the Baum 14. Since we're just starting Thompson, I will post (or re-post) the chronologies for ROYAL BOOK, KABUMPO, and COWARDLY LION. Others will be posted as the BCF changes. Originally posted: Tuesday, September 24, 1996 ********WARNING: PLOT SPOILERS FOR "ROYAL BOOK" AHEAD********** I did a breakdown of the plot of ROYAL BOOK on a day-to-day basis, which I'll reproduce (in part) here. What I found was that the rendezvous in the Silver Islands works best if we assume a 24-hour trip for the Scarecrow rather than a 48-hour trip: Day 1 - Scarecrow departs EC in late evening Day 2 - Scarecrow crosses Munchkin River; reaches beanpole late evening ("by the second evening"); slides down beanpole - Dorothy & Lion depart EC ("the morning after the party"); reach Scarecrow's tower (Winkie country) by mid-morning; night in front of Pokes Day 3 - Scarecrow (Chang Wang Woe) resumes throne of the Silver Islands - Dorothy & Lion meet Sir Hokus in AM; party meets Candy Giant; night in Fix City Day 4 - Dorothy's party takes road from Fix City Day 5 - Scarecrow defeats King of the Golden Islands ("Two days had passed") Day 6 - Dorothy's party meets the deaf shepherd ("on the second day" after leaving Fix City) Day 7 - Return of Honorable Offspring ("the second morning after the great victory"); Scarecrow & Happy Toko chained to piller at night - Dorothy's party meets Comfortable Camel & Doubtful Dromedary ("for three days they had wandered"); reunited with Scarecrow Day 8 - Abdication of Chang Wang Woe If we assume that the Scarecrow's initial trip to the beanpole took 48 hours then we have to add another day into Dorothy's journey, and I don't think that works as well. ***************END SPOILER FOR "ROYAL BOOK"**************** I also assume that when Thompson says the Scarecrow didn't stop, he didn't stop at all. If his mental state was such that he kept on running into styles without seeing them and falling down, I don't think he was in any mood for polite conversation with passers-by. Originally posted: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 ******WARNING: POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR "KABUMPO" AHEAD******** Day 1 - Pompa's 18th birthday party in the morning (the Pumperdinkians spend "an anxious afternoon and evening") - Kabumpo & Pompa escape at night - Ruggedo finishes 6th rock ("on the same night that Prince Pompa and Kabumpo disappeared from Pumperdink") & discovers Glegg's Mixed Magic Day 2 - Kabumpo & Pompa travel through Rith Metic, reach Illumi Nation - Ruggedo locks up Wag in morning, opens Glegg's box at evening - Dorothy's reception "on the evening after Ruggedo's strange discovery of the mixed magic" - Ruggedo impales Ozma's castle and heads for Ev, reaching it during night - Sand Man visits the Palace the same night, puts Ruggedo, residents to sleep Day 3 - Soldier with the Green Whiskers discovers missing palace after breakfast, summons Glinda - Wag & Peg depart late at night - Kabumpo & Pompa spend day in Illumi Nation, reach Soup Sea before moonrise - Kabumpo travels through the night Day 4 - Kabumpo & Pompa arrive at Emerald City at dawn, meet Glinda ("After studying a whole day and night in her magic books, Glinda had returned to the Emerald City to try to perfect her plan for rescuing Ozma.") - they catch up with Wag & Peg - adventures with Twigs, Runaway Country - Kabumpo's party arrives in Ev in afternoon (the Scarecrow indicates that the Palace inhabitants have been asleep for two days) - leave for Sun Top Mountain at dusk ("just one star twinkled cheerily in the sky") - arrive at Sun Top Mountain after moonrise Day 5 - Peg & Pompa travel to EC Note: There are several overnight stops included in this summary that are not directly accounted for in the text. In order to match the times of Ruggedo's actions and those of Glinda with Kabumpo's & Wag's journeys, I have to assume that Kabumpo & Pompa spend a whole day in Illumi Nation, and that Wag and Peg similarly spend a whole day in Wag's burrow after Ruggedo's growth. This could conceivably be covered in the text (Kabumpo spends some time unconscious in Illumi Nation: "How long he lay in an unconscious state the Elegant Elephant never knew"; and "For a long time after the terrific bang following Ruggedo's final expansion, Wag and Peg Amy had been too stunned to even move"--and, when Wag and Peg finally leave, they go at night over the head of the Soldier with the Green Whiskers. If they'd left the same night as Ruggedo, the Soldier would not have been there to see them leave--he discovered that the palace was missing right after breakfast on the morning following Ruggedo's escape). I would also like to include at least one overnight journey on the Runaway Country, either on the way to Ev or on the way to Sun Top Mountain, or possibly both (partly to round out the seven days mentioned in Glegg's scroll and partly in order to make the traveling times more meaningful), but I can't justify this based on the existing text. ****************END SPOILERS***************** Originally posted: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:53:07 ******WARNING: POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR "COWARDLY LION" AHEAD******** Day 1 - Mustapha demands Cowardly Lion - Notta & Bob arrive in Mudge - night in forest Day 2 - Lion begins journey at daybreak - Notta & Bob travel through Doorways - Lion meets woodcutters, leaves them "late in the afternoon," travels through night Day 3 - Lion meets Notta & Bob at daybreak - travel to Un during early afternoon - attacks by Uns during night Day 4 - Party meets Nickadoodle before dawn - escape in Flyaboutabus in morning - caught by Crunch in afternoon - party splits: Notta, Bob, & Snorer spend night in Fiddlestick Forest - Crunch & Lion travel through night Day 5 - Notta, Bob & Snorer meet Ozma's court at breakfast - Crunch, Lion arrive in Mudge when "the sun was high" - Lion disenchanted in afternoon Note: The above reflects the chronology as given in the text. Despite Mustapha's giving Notta three days' rations to reach the EC, the trip actually takes four whole days and possibly part of a fifth. Thompson states in Chapter 19 that "Notta started to tell the history of his three amazing days in Oz," but this may mean that the day he spends in Un didn't count. Un, being a Skyle, may not be considered part of Oz. ****************END SPOILERS***************** Apologies for the length of this post to those who find this not of interest... Best, KRS ====================================================================== Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 15:00:36 -0400 From: David Levitan Subject: My website Hi, I just wanted to let everyone know that my web site has moved to http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/. I have also moved the digest archive (for the last time) to http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/digest/. Please update your links. Also, if any one needs to link to the e-texts, they can be found at (URLs are self explanatory): 1: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?wizard 2: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?land 3: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?ozma 4: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?dorothyandwizard 5: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?road 6: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?emeraldcityofoz 7: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?patchworkgirl 8: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?tiktok 9: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?scarecrow 10: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?rinkitink 11: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?lostprincess 12: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?tinwoodman 13: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?magic 14: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?glinda 15: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?royalbook 29: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?wishinghorse 30: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?captainsalt 31: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?handymandy 32: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?silverprincess 33: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?ozoplaningwithwizard 37: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?magicalmimics 38: http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com/book.cgi?shaggyman Sorry for the inconvenience -- David Levitan E-mail: Web Page: david@emeraldcityofoz.com The Emerald City of Oz dbl@bestweb.net http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com ====================================================================== From: Madelinex@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:09:24 EDT Subject: subscribe subscribe oz-digest ====================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:46:32 +0100 From: David Hulan Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-02-99 Christine: >Can anyone recommend a good biography of Frank Baum? Is there a >definitive bio? _L. Frank Baum: Royal Historian of Oz_, by Angelica Shirley Carpenter and Jean Shirley, Lerner Publications (Minneapolis) 1992, ISBN 0-8225-4910-7, is a good general bio of Baum, although aimed at younger readers. I think it's still in print and available from Books of Wonder, though I'm not positive about that. (Or you could try amazon.com.) There are other bios, but they're all out of print and hard to find. Doug: >IMHO the fact that Ozma's mother is never even mentioned may point out that >perhaps she never had one. Perhaps Pastoria was a bachelor, and then >Lurline gave him the de-aged Ozma to be his daughter and future ruler. That was Snow's position, but it contradicts Baum's statement that Ozma was "born of a long line of fairy queens." To me this must mean that Ozma was in fact born as an infant, whether Pastoria was her biological father or not. A few remarks about _Kabumpo_ before that book ceases being the BCF: As a sidelight, Marcia and I used the "forever and even longer" phrase from this book as part of our wedding ceremony, and also had it engraved - in Cirth runes from _Lord of the Rings_ - on our wedding rings. (Obvously it won't be forever, much less even longer, unless we can contrive to emigrate to Oz, but it's lasted 25 years by now with no signs of fracture.) I don't recall anyone mentioning that the illustration on page 25 (in a mid-'40s R&L edition, thus probably in all earlier ones as well, though without checking I'd guess that BoW corrected it in their edition) is upside down. King Pompus and his counselors seem irrationally certain that Faleero is the "proper fairy princess." They light on her without the slightest consideration of the fact that Oz seems to be full of fairy princesses. At least Kabumpo shows a certain amount of common sense on that issue, though he doesn't rate high on it otherwise. I never bothered to look up "cottabus" in a dictionary when I was a kid, thinking it was just a word Thompson had coined. Then I ran across it recently in one of the Roman period mysteries I've read - I think one of Lindsey Davis's, though it might have been one of Stephen Saylor's - as a game played by the ancient Greeks and Romans where people tried to throw wine from a distance into a container. ("Cottabus" is the Latin version of the original Greek "kottabos.") I would seriously doubt that Thompson ever encountered the game itself; I wonder where she ran across the word? I've never cared for Thompson's treatment of Scraps. Baum has her irrepressible, but not irresponsible, and while she speaks in bad verse a great deal of the time she doesn't, to the best of my recollection, "scream" with no provocation as she does on page 96 and often elsewhere in Thompson's books. She isn't important enough in _Kabumpo_ for this change to be much of a problem, but in later books where she plays a major role, like _Gnome King_ and _Ojo_, it's grating. And Neill makes her even worse. Peg's memory of Rug's finding the box of magic before she was reanimated gives further credibility to the theory that inanimate objects in Oz are able to perceive and remember things that happened before they were animated. That's as far as I've gotten in my current rereading; I may have a few more comments when I've read the rest, if we're still on _Kabumpo_ by then. (Since no date has been given yet for starting the _Cowardly Lion_ discussion we probably will be.) On another topic from some time ago, there was a recent article in the Trib about Macedonia, including some discussion of the Macedonian language. It is, apparently, just a version of Bulgarian and is about as different from what they speak in Bulgaria as American English is from the British version. I bring it up because there is an Ozzy connection - apparently, for political reasons, for the first few years after Macedonia became an independent state the Macedonian representatives insisted on having a translator present when dealing with Bulgarians, even though the two groups understood each other perfectly well. So the translator in each case would simply repeat what the speaker had said. It's a good thing, I suppose, that none of the translators had Jellia's sense of mischief; we might have had another Balkan war there... David Hulan ====================================================================== From: CruentiDei@cs.com Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:51:21 EDT Subject: Oz Gehan: At first glance, the accounts in _Magic_ and _Lost King_ do seem to contradict one another. Resolving it depends on what books you accept as valid. If you accept only Baum and not Thompson: She was not Pastoria's biological daughter and must have been given to him, since Snow does not contradict Baum when he stands alone. If you accept all FF authors equally: You need to come up with an explanation that either satisfies both statements, or a reason to reject one or the other. I've tended to believe that Ozma was born to Pastoria and his wife, but that her fairy spirit was infused with the baby. Also, that her mortal mother was partially descended from fairies from Lurline's band. As Doug Torrance points out, though, her mortal mother is never mentioned in the FF and only very rarely out of the FF. If she was given to Pastoria, we would have to discount the statement in _Scarecrow_ that says she was descended of a long line of fairy queens. Dave: Filtering out all HTML tags will be quite a challenge, but it is not totally impossible. Tyler Jones ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 17:27:06 (PDT) From: Dave Hardenbrook Subject: Ozzy Things SYNOPSES: Thanks to Ken Shepherd for the synopses... I'll add them to the file archive. OZMA'S LINEAGE: One theory I've heard proposed here in the past is that the "Long Line of Fairy Queens" from which Ozma says she is descended is horizontal on a Minkowski space-time diagram, i.e. the entire line was created _ex nihilo_ in a single instant. This is the "Big Fairy Bang" theory as opposed to the "Steady Fairy State" theory which says that Ozma and her ancestors descended over time in what Basil Fawlty calls, "The Traditional Fashion". Somehow I just can't picture Ozma, Zurline, et. al, all present in the Plank Quantum Gravity Epoch witnessing the decoupling of matter and the partitioning of the Four Forces... Jellia: How was it? Ozma: Undoubtably the best 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of a second of my life! Then the Inflation epoch occured, and first thermonuclear sythesis of helium and then the Cosmos becoming transparent... It was all downhill after that... _KABUMPO_ AND BCF: I have a question before we depart the _Kambumpo in Oz_ discussion: Many of you have on diverse occasions have cited a certain incident in our current BCF as "proof positive" that any story involving Ozma and Cupid would be the greatest piece of vile demonic heresy since a certain Turkish-descended hippie started ranting about dinosaurs being hot-blooded. :) So I find myself asking, why the hippikaloric did Ruth Plumly Thompson open that can of worms in the first place? Why did she ever have *anyone* propose to Ozma? Many of you have said that Neill's later, more voluptuous depictions of Ozma were in response to the marriage proposals concocted by RPT (I'm speaking on an Oz-as-Lit. level of course). But why didn't she just take it for granted that Ozma *was* a "little girl after all"? If she had, Neill would never have drawn such alluring pics of Ozma, I would have had to find some other way of entering puberty ( Polychrome? :) ), and the writing of an Ozma love story would never have entered my mind. ( So, Dan-haters, the emerald buck stops with RPT and Neill, not me! :) ) My "Oz-as-History" explanation you'll find out when my book is published. My "Oz-as-Literature" conjecture is that fans were writing in asking for an Ozma love story and she was so appalled she felt inclined to insert that "sermon" dismissing the posibility into _Kabumpo_. All I'm doing is granting all those Oz fans' wishes, just about 80 years too late. (Like Lucy Van Pelt, I embrace this theory because it can't be proved one way or another.) :) As far as our next BCF, I want to give everyone a chance to aquire the _Cowardly Lion of Oz_. IWOC is as far as I know the only way to purchase it. So, how about July 12 to start _CLoOz_ (that gives everyone a full month to order it and the mails to deliver it)? -- Dave ====================================================================== ] c/ \ /___\ *** THE OZZY DIGEST, JUNE 11 - 16, 1999 *** |@ @| | V | \\\ |\_/| | ;;; \-/ \ ;/ >< ] ====================================================================== From: TWOOZ@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:12:44 EDT Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 05-28-99 Does anyone out there know if there will be any impending items (collectibles ect>) that will be in the marketplace in observance of the 60'th anniversary?? Please write to me if you know of any and thanks in advance TWOOZ@AOL.COM ====================================================================== From: CruentiDei@cs.com Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:43:59 EDT Subject: Oz David Hulan: That's an interesting idea. Ozma may have lived in the castle at Morrow for many years while the Wizard was ruling in EC, although that contradicts the story in _Oz and the Three Witches_. Since you don't hold non-FF books to the same level of importance as FF, that would not bother you. Of course, the events in that story contradict some of the evidence in _Lost King_, unless I use Aaron's de-aging theory. Gehan: If Ruggedo's statement in _Tik-Tok_ is to be believed, then fairies will live until the Universe itself comes to an end. Gehan again: I disagree that it was Lurline's enchantment that brought all magic to Oz. There is plenty of evidence, in an out of the FF, that indicates there was magic in Oz before the enchantment, just not fairy magic. There is no evidence that fairies or fairy magic are the primary engines of magic in the world. Several other forms of magic seem to operate just fine without the intervention of fairies. There are several kingdoms around Oz that have magic and they were never visited and enchanted by anybody (as far as we know). The calendar used in the Traveller's Tree could have been from an old history the predates Lurline by quite some time If it comes down to Jack Snow's quick statement that Lurline enchanted Oz 200 years ago, and the evidence from _Yellow Knight_ that says it was at least 700 years ago, I'd have to side with RPT. The evidence in that book is much stronger. Ken Shepherd: Ken returns! Glad to hear that your life is so full, and many thanks for the posting of the RPT chronology. Madelinex@aol.com: Dave may not have noticed this post, although it is in the digest, even without "OZ" in the subject line. Hopefully, you are subscribed, so welcome aboard! ;-) John Bell: If Ozma's "long line of fairy queens" is taken to mean the fairy band, that means that Lurline is just one of many rulers, stretching into the past. That does not seem to be the case, and the word "born" would usually not apply to a fairy unless she had been born in the physical sense. Tyler Jones ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:55:47 +1000 From: Gehan Cooray Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-10-99 David (Hulan) and Tyler: Baum does say that Ozma comes from a long line of fairy kings and queens in _Scarecrow_,but as John Belle pointed out,he doesnt say that she descends from a long line of fairy kings and queens from OZ and so she doesnt neednt be Pastoria's biological daughter. Another guess is that Ozette had already given birth to Ozma,and she was already a young lady when Ozette married Pastoria. That also shows that Ozma COULD have been there from the bgeinning of time but it rejects the fact that Pastoria IS her father. RPT mentions in one of her books that Ozma lived with Mombi for atleast nine years after Mombi transformed her into Tip. So RPT obviously means to say that Ozma is nine years old but I very much doubt that. I think she's about 16-17. Oziana: Maybe _Oziana_ can be emailed onto the Digest? John Belle: I agree with you. Thompson obviously confused Ruggedo with a garden gnome in -Kabumpo- and she realised that she had made a mistake later. David (Hulan) again: I agree with you. In RPT's books,Scraps doesnt make very nice poems. They are really silly in her books but they were perfect in Baum's books. I havent read any of John Rae Neill's books yet so I wouldnt know how Scraps is in his books. In defense of -That Ozzy Feeling_ and Dave: If eighteen year old Pompa married Peg Amy,I dont see why Ozma cant marry Dan. Isnt Ozma supposed to be about 15-16 years old too? And if she has lived for thousands of years,we cant object to her marrying because we cant call a thousand year-old a little girl. Accodring to _Silver Princess_ Peg gave birth to a baby and that means that eighteen year old Pompa had s** with her. If an eighteen year old can do all that,I dont see why Ozma cant marry Dan. I wonder what made RPT think that Ozma was a little girl when Baum clearly states that she is about 14-16. Untill next time! --Gehan ============================================================================ ===== In all the world theres no place like home......exepct Oz ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:26:57 -0400 From: "J. L. Bell" Subject: Ozma implications charset=ISO-8859-1 About the origin of Ozma, David Hulan wrote: <> Earlier I misunderstood how you see this statement from SCARECROW contradicting Snow's statement about Ozma. Thanks for the elaboration. Does "born" for a fairy necessarily mean the same thing as "born" for a human or other animal? There are other ways to reproduce in nature, and presumably even more in the supernatural. As I wrote before, Ozma could be part of a line of fairy queens that's separate from the ruling dynasties in Oz. I find the lack of any mention of Ozma's mother in the canonical Oz books to be a very strong indication that she never existed. For little children, knowing where parents are is very important; Baum took care to state that Dorothy was an orphan, that Trot's father was at sea, and so on. (Betsy didn't get this treatment, but in many ways she seems to be only sketched in.) Later authors followed Baum's lead on this detail. Snow's explanation not only didn't directly contradict what came before, it also picked up on certain threads from Baum. About Ozma's romantic prospects, Dave Hardenbrook wrote: <> Remember how much Thompson relies on "proper" fairy-tale plots, and how often she makes her characters follow those conventions. To her more tradition-oriented characters, such as Kabumpo, a beautiful young princess living in a palace must be marriageable; in a "proper" fairy tale, a queen can't be happy just by herself, ruling her country in her own right. And who better to be her Prince Charmant, those characters wonder, than me (or my pal here)? For almost all her other princesses, Thompson did indeed supply such suitors. She shied away from doing so for Ozma. Indeed, she presented the suggestion of a husband for Ozma as a fate we should root against (JACK PUMPKINHEAD), or at least as a bad plan for characters we like (KABUMPO). That strongly implies that Thompson knew most readers did *not* welcome that prospect. Incidentally, in my months on the Digest, I've never seen anyone criticize your ideas about Ozma's interests and eligibility in terms as harsh as those you use yourself. David Hulan wrote: <> Cute. Was it hard to find a Cirth engraver? J. L. Bell JnoLBell@compuserve.com ====================================================================== From: Nathan Mulac DeHoff Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-10-99 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:27:48 PDT Gehan: >Well,maybe Pastoria is half-fairy,half-human even though I doubt it. I >beleive that Lurline helped Pastoria when Mombi threw him down the well and >that mybe why the water didnt effect him. Doesnt he say that Lurline had >visited him? Yes, Lurline visited Pastoria in Blankenburg, and gave him his flying ears. There doesn't seem to be any real proof as to whether Pastoria is a fairy or not. >David(Godwin): >Well,all living things have to have an end and so fairies will have to die >too someday and so its possible that Pastoria's wife WAS a full-blooded >fairy. Fairies are immortal, so I don't think that they can die. That's pretty much what "immortal" means. Whether or not they'll come to and end is a different matter. I suppose that fairies could be destroyed somehow (especially if their home world is destroyed), but they wouldn't die in the usual manner. >In >_Cowardly Lion_, Bob up and Notta Bit More find a magic travellers tree >which was created somewhere in the 11 hundreds and that would mean that it >was created after Lurline came to Oz since she was the one who brought all >the magic there. The assumption that Lurline brought all of the magic to Oz is one that has been brought forth by several Ozian researchers, including Robert Pattrick (author of _Unexplored Territory in Oz_), but there really doesn't seem to be any basis for it in the series itself. After all, magic exists in some of the other Nonestican nations, and there is no indication that Lurline enchanted them. David Hulan: >King Pompus and his counselors seem irrationally certain that Faleero is >the "proper fairy princess." They light on her without the slightest >consideration of the fact that Oz seems to be full of fairy princesses. At >least Kabumpo shows a certain amount of common sense on that issue, though >he doesn't rate high on it otherwise. Another interesting consideration is that Ozma and Faleero are actual, physical fairies, while Peg Amy doesn't seem to be. Perhaps she's just a fairy princess because she lives in a fairy country. (In _Emerald City_, Baum mentioned that all of the inhabitants of Oz are "fairy people.") This would mean that the "proper princess" could have been any princess in Oz, though. Nathan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ====================================================================== From: Doug Torrance Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-10-99 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:29:59 PDT My theory on Ozma's parentage: Ozma was born to one of the fairy queens in Lurline's band, therefore satisfying Baum's statement that she was born to a long line of fairy queens. After many years of roaming fairyland with the band, she is de-aged and given to Pastoria so that she can rule Oz after him, thus satisfying Snow's proposition in _Mimics_. Doug Torrance _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ====================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:36:51 +1000 From: Gehan Cooray Subject: Ozzy Things *.Could someone please tell me what the High Preists have to do with Oz? *.In _Wizard_,Glinda is said to have worn a white gown and her red hair was supposed to fall in ringlets. Yet in other Oz Books, Glinda is dressed in pink,red or other colours and her hair seems to be all tied up. Was it one of John R.Neill's mistakes? Did Baum want to change her looks later? Or does Glinda change her clothes and her hair-style often like Ozma and Dorothy? She looks different from -Wizard_ in _Land_,and she looks even different in the other Oz books. But ofcourse,Baum says that white is the colour of good witches and so Glinda may have been dressed in white at _Wizard_ because she was a good witch. She probably changed her clothes after becoming a sorceress perhaps? *.If Princess Langwidere was so interested in Dorothy's head,why didnt she want Ozma's head too? Ozma's head is supposed to be mcuh prettier than Dorothy's Or maybe she was too angry to notice Ozma's beauty at that time,perhaps? *.Why did L.Frank Baum spell gnome as Nome? Whats the difference between them? *.Over the years,have any Ozzy Digest members left the Digest other than Eric Gjovaag? How many have left? What was the minimum amount of time,any of the Ozzy Digest unsubscribers spent being members? *.By the way,Dave,are Forg,Taarna and Gyma characters from your upcoming Oz Books? You have mentioned about most of them, on my Oz Roleplaying Game and so I was wondering..... Untill next time! --Gehan ============================================================================ ===== In all the world theres no place like home......exepct Oz ====================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:45:00 -0500 Subject: Oz From: "David F Godwin" Ruth Berman wrote: >Biographically speaking, I suspect that Baum would have been >unhappy to think that his books were taken to promote atheism. True, although modern critical theory (which I don't always necessarily agree with and which seems to have very limited usefulness) would say that the intent of the author is irrelevant to the meaning of the text. My primary object in this whole discussion, however, although it may not have been clear at times, has been to point out - and express my amazement about - how WWiz and the whole Oz canon is sufficiently universal as to be open to a wide variety of interpretations, some of which are mutually exclusive: the Populist interpretation, the Theosophist interpretation, the atheist interpretation, the New Age psychological/spiritual interpretation (or the "self-help" interpretation, if you prefer), the Zen interpretation, the Masonic interpretation, the magical mystery tour interpretation, ad inifinitum. You can say that the point of WWiz is that there's no place like home, that we should rely on ourselves instead of experts and authorities (or the government, which makes the book into a Republican tract), that the kingdom of heaven is within you, that the patriarchy (the Wizard) is a sham and a failure and we should instead revert to the ancient matriarchal system (Glinda), that good is better than evil because it's gooder, whatever. Who's to say which theory is correct? My own thoughts on the matter are that any interpretation is in some sense wrong because, the minute you begin to analyze something, you limit it, and any truly great work of art cannot be legitimately limited in this fashion. There will always be something left out. Tyler Jones wrote: >I've tended to believe that Ozma was born to Pastoria and his wife, but that >her fairy spirit was infused with the baby. As Gehan pointed out, although not in these words, this theory is spooky because it's so close to Christianity. Also, it sounds like the New Age doctrine of the "walk-in," a higher spirit that possesses a lesser human being. (And, in that case, what happens to the personality of the original entity?) Or was Ozma's spirit waiting in line to be born at the proper time and place, like all the other unborn babies and reincarnating souls in some Theosophical limbo? I'm not sure why, but this whole theory gives me the willies. Ozma is a fascinating and puzzling individual - born yet eternal, a child yet a slinky teenager, and so on. Still, I'd prefer not to jump through pseudo-theological hoops in order to explain it. Dave wrote: >As far as our next BCF, I want to give everyone a chance to aquire >the _Cowardly Lion of Oz_. IWOC is as far as I know the only way >to purchase it. So, how about July 12 to start _CLoOz_ (that gives >everyone a full month to order it and the mails to deliver it)? I don't mean to put a damper on this plan, and I'm not complaining, but it's been my experience (at least so far this year) that it takes several months to get anything you order from IWOC. It takes about two months just to get the sales receipt acknowledging your order and another month or two beyond that to get the actual merchandise. I assume the staff to be volunteer, extremely busy, overworked, and behind. They deserve our sympathy, support, and patience rather than our censure. However, any discussion in this forum needs to be anticipated long enough in advance that people have ample time to acquire the book. I'd say this is the responsibility of the individual rather than Dave. We all know that we'll probably be discussing the FF in order of publication, so take it from there. Don't wait until the last minute. I'd advise ordering Grampa, Lost King, and Hungry Tiger _now_ so as to have time to get them and read them before they become BCFs. > But why didn't she just take it for granted that Ozma >*was* a "little girl after all"? If she had, Neill would never have >drawn such alluring pics of Ozma... Presumably, she was fond of fairy tale romances, and Ozma-as-child didn't fit that scenario. As to why RPT shied away from going further and made Ozma into an immaculate (but mature) virgin goddess remains to be explained. The general reaction to your attempt to change this would seem to indicate that people like it that way for some reason. On the other hand, maybe it's simple jealousy based on the fact that Dan is perceived as being so transparently you, romping his way satyr-like through Oz in some lurid adolescent fantasy. :) (Hey! I _did_ say "perceived"! :) ) If I may say so, some of your own comments in re Ozma-as-babe, living with the Adepts, etc. tend to reinforce this doubtless erroneous perception. :) >...I would have had to find some other >way of entering puberty... This brings to mind images not to be thought upon. :) And even if it were all true, then what of it? You would "deserve our sympathy, support, and patience rather than our censure." :) My frequent use of the smiley face in the preceding comments illustrates my previous statement to the effect that a text has a life of its own regardless of authorial intent. I'm hoping to minimize that by attempting to convey the notion that my outrageous tirade is strictly a matter of wink wink nudge nudge and a few snickers and/or belly laughs. Sorry if anyone finds it in bad taste. As an aside, I would just like to remark that I find it distressing that such devices are required to avoid misunderstanding. Mark Twain never had to use them. :) Seriously, though, if you don't want this controversial subject (of Ozma's marriage and/or marriageability) discussed on the Digest, as you've previously stated, why do you keep bringing it up? IMHO, the "slinkiest," not to say sultriest, depiction of Ozma in the whole FF occurs in _Pirates_ (p. 207 of the Del Rey edition) - the full-page illustration captioned "'How can we ever thank you?' breathed Ozma." (This may be the "infamous slinky Ozma" from your website, but for some reason I can't access that particular file.) Anyway, this is no little kid, however LFB may have imagined her to begin with. - David G. ====================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:58:19 -0500 Subject: PGOz From: "David F Godwin" ****Spolier for Patchwork Girl of Oz**** Were animal rights activists around at the time PGOz was written? If so, could Baum have been satirizing them in the person of the Tin Woodman, who is willing to let Unc Nunkie and Margolotte remain marble statues forever rather than dismember a yellow butterfly? ****End Spoiler**** - David G. ====================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 08:35:33 CST From: "Ruth Berman" Subject: upsides in Oz Ken Shepherd: Nice to see your book-chronologies again. Congratulations on the marriage and doctorate and book published! What's the name of the book (and publisher and ISBN)? If it's in the field of history, there are probably a fair number of Digest-readers with enough interest in history to want to try looking it up. (If it's a self-help book, probably a rather smaller potential readership in this outfit, I'd imagine.) David Hulan: Took a look at the upsidedown illo on p. 25 you mentioned, and sure enough, it's upsidedown. Quite obviously so, once it's pointed out, but I don't know that it's been pointed out before. (The BoW edition left it as it was.) Ruth Berman ====================================================================== From: Kiex@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:32:02 EDT Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 05-26-99 Okay, I'm back, folks (isn't it about time? Well, maybe I wasn't missed that much. ;-) Anyway, I have returned). To respond to the Digest of the 26th: Which do I prefer, the movie or the book? As I imagine I've said before, I'm a book purist. The movie is too jolly and light-hearted for me. Perhaps I have an age bias somewhere. WHen people talk about aging certain characters at 4 or 5, I just can't see that happening. (Button-Bright and Dorothy, for example--I can't see them doing what they do at that young an age. Perhaps when I'm older I'll have a broader perspective and that'd change.) How RPT names her books: The, of Oz; (Name) in Oz . . . I seriously doubt she did that much careful planning or put that much thought into it, but true, that's what it turned out to be ... <> That's for sure! I almost went crosseyed, but I sorted through it all in the end. I have a terrible, nasty, idea about why Ozma was de-aged: MAYBE IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!!! On to the Digest of the 10th (I know I skipped some there, didn't find anything to reply to): Oz and Morrow: All I know is that there have been sightings of a divinity in the latter area, the return of the offspring of God, in fact. As they say, "The Son Will Come Out To Morrow." Dave Hardenbrook: I can't tell you how much I enjoy reading the dialogue you insert into your postings. Please keep at it! Incidentally, who will be publishing your book when it comes out? (You may have said that already, b ut the last few months have been hectic for me, what with finishing school for the year, being sick, and all, so I don't remember.) Until next time (and boy, it's nice to be back!), Jeremy Steadman, Junior Historian of Oz kivel99@planetall.com ====================================================================== From: jwkenne@ibm.net Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 17:40:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-02-99 David F. Godwin wrote: >The dialect is a rather inept attempt to imitate the black dialect on the >"race records" of the time, and the thrust seems to be that "Negroes are >demonstrably inferior, though comical, because they talk like this and >produce insufferable music like this." In other words, the racism of the >song has nothing to do with liking or disliking coal-black, cross-eyed Lulu. >Plainly, both the singer and Lulu are supposed to be black, and the dialect >(which is not simply Southern) and style of the song make that clear >regardless of the adjective applied to Lulu. You can use whatever >description you like for Lulu; no one is going to mistake this for a >Southern white song. I'm inclined to disagree. The description of the voice on the record and the rhythm of the lyric (which has one too many "loo's" to fit any bluesy tune I can imagine for it) suggest to me not a "race record" (did such even exist at this early date?) but a "coon song", meant to be sung (in live performance) by a white singer in blackface. CruentiDei@cs.com wrote: >It is true that 127 (or 0x7F) is a standard character, but it >happens to be the backspace, which can confuse some systems. Strictly, it's the delete character (historically, because punching all the holes was how you erased something in paper tape). Sometimes it is treated as a backspace, but the true backspace character is 8 (0x08). // John W Kennedy ====================================================================== From: jwkenne@ibm.net Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 16:58:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 05-26-99 David Hulan wrote: >Technically ["Oz the great and good" is] redundant, but when two >different languages are involved that sort of thing is fairly >common; haven't you heard "the hoi polloi" ("hoi" being Greek >for "the") or "shrimp scampi" ("scampi" being Italian for "shrimp"). Or "Chicken a la King", which is a mistake for "Chicken a la Reine", which literally means "Chicken a la Queen" -- but, in the parlance of French cookery, "a la Reine" means "with chicken". (Chicken as a poor-folks' food is a relatively modern notion.) >>>This is getting more than slightly off subject, but I thought you might find >>>it interesting that "Aslan" is a Turkish word meaning "lion". The correct >>>pronunciation in Turkish is "uss-LUNN". >>I believe Lewis intended to mean "Lion", but his reference, as I understand >>it, was to Persian, not Turkish. (I don't know if he knew either language, >>but I know he was a great admirer of Firdausi.) >If Persian and Turkish, which are totally unrelated languages, use the same >word for "lion," is it possible that both borrowed it from Arabic? >Otherwise, I'd guess that Turkish might have borrowed it from Persian, >since that was the older literate culture. I don't have any Arabic references, but Hebrew words translated as "Lion" in the KJV are "ari", "aryeh", "kephir", "lebaim", "labi", "layish", "shachal" and "shachats", none of which particularly resemble "aslan". I'd bet on Persian, especially since I've heard the translation is actually "noble lion"; I can imagine an IE language producing "as" (cf. OE "aethel") and "lan" (cf. Gk "leon"). Pure guesswork, of course. But another point is that Turkish borrowed many Persian words, and I believe the ancestors of the Turks did not live in lion country. (Later, after reading a later Digest) On the other hand, if it's not in Farsi (which, I am told, is little more changed since Firdausi's day than English is changed since the KJV), I don't know what to think. Could Lewis have known the Shah-nameh through a Turkish intermediary? // John W Kennedy ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:29:46 +0000 From: ajhnyc@aol.com Subject: [Ozma] john plant Oz opera I am trying to locate John Plant a composer who has written an opera about Oz. He was in Huntingdon Pa until the 6ht grade then moved to Philadephia area and had been living in Montreal. I am a childhood friend Andy Hickes. He is 53 now about. ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:22:08 -0500 From: Kevin Ely Subject: oz Hi how can I join the group? I am trying to find doll patterns to make Wizard of Oz dolls and I thought this would be a good place to start. Have been a collector for 25 years! Thanks Andrea Ely ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 10:40:14 (PDT) From: Dave Hardenbrook Subject: Ozzy Things OZMA AND OZ FOREVER (AND I DO MEAN *FOREVER*)!: Nathan wrote: > I suppose that fairies could be destroyed somehow > (especially if their home world is destroyed)... I have faith that when the sun becomes a red giant, or when the Vogon Constructor Fleet arrives, Glinda will teleport Oz and its inhabitants safely to another dimension. Tyler wrote: >If Ruggedo's statement in _Tik-Tok_ is to be believed, then fairies will live >until the Universe itself comes to an end. Which translates into forever if you believe (as I do) that Oz exists in an Alfven/Lerner plasma-state universe that has no "heat death". FWIW, my feeling is that even if *our* universe faces "heat death" (a big and dubious assumption IMHO) in its remote future -- even if all the stars do die, even if the protons in the atoms do all disintegrate, still, even so, "Life will find a way"... GEHAN'S QUESTIONS: >*.In _Wizard_,Glinda is said to have worn a white gown and her red hair was >supposed to fall in ringlets. Yet in other Oz Books, Glinda is dressed in >pink,red or other colours and her hair seems to be all tied up. Was it one >of John R.Neill's mistakes? I guess Neill just decided that living in Quadling Country, it is logical that Glinda wear red. (In my own drawings, Locasta wears bright purple.) >*.Why did L.Frank Baum spell gnome as Nome? He wanted to make it as pronouncible for kids as possible, same as his reasons for hyphenating Hip-po-gy-raf and Li-mon-eag. >Whats the difference between them? Nomes live underground amoungst the rocks. Gnomes are more frequently seen in hotel gardens getting strangled by Basil Fawlty. >*.Over the years,have any Ozzy Digest members left the Digest other than >Eric Gjovaag? Yes. >How many have left? Countless "lurkers"... Only a few high-profile members. A couple have left and then come back. >What was the minimum amount of time,any of >the Ozzy Digest unsubscribers spent being members? Barring those who have subscribed thinking it's an Ozzy Osbourne Fan List (I disillusion *them* as quickly as possible), I think 24 hours is the shortest... Oftimes they leave after one Digest, seeing that it's not what they were hoping for. MORE "OZ"'S: I just got an E-mail from someone asking if the "Oz Digest" is a fan club for Oz -- as in Oz of _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_. Sigh. DEFENSE FROM DAVID G. AND GEHAN ("NO MAN IS A FAILURE WHO HAS *FRIENDS*!"): :) David wrote: >As Gehan pointed out, although not in these words, this theory is spooky >because it's so close to Christianity. I agree -- I'd prefer not to think of Ozma as "the immaculate conception". >As to why RPT shied away from going further and made Ozma >into an immaculate (but mature) virgin goddess remains to be explained. Why do some diehard new age music fans insist on making Enya into an immaculate virgin goddess? (If *she* ever got married, I don't know *what* would happen...) There's a lot I don't understand... >The general reaction to your attempt to change this would seem to indicate >that people like it that way for some reason. There are many reasonable Oz fans, like John Bell, who believe that "no change" is an essential quality of Oz. Then there are some others who really leave the impression that they think that carnal romance is fundamentally dirty and evil and must not be allowed to pollute certain "pure" Ozites (mostly the non-evil female magic workers). As far I can tell this attitude seems unique to Oz. In _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ a fairy named Titania falls in love with a man with the head of a donkey. In _Iolanthe_ there's a law against fairies marrying, but it is lifted when the fairies defy their queen and she realizes that "I can't slaugter the whole company". And in the universe of Disney's _Aladdin_ even genies fall in love. ("Some Enchanted Genie" if anyone wants the exact episode.) >And even if it were all true, then what of it? You would "deserve our >sympathy, support, and patience rather than our censure." :) In fairness, some more charitable and/or diplomatic dissenters have called me "misguided"... (If this be "misgudedness" I welcome it!) :) :) >Seriously, though, if you don't want this controversial subject (of Ozma's >marriage and/or marriageability) discussed on the Digest, as you've >previously stated, why do you keep bringing it up? Ah, but I *do* want it discussed on the Digest, it's just that people in the past have degenerated it into a flame war. Hopefully, we can keep that from hapening this time... >IMHO, the "slinkiest," not to say sultriest, depiction of Ozma in the whole >FF occurs in _Pirates_... Out-of-print. Sigh. :) Gehan wrote: >If eighteen year old Pompa married Peg Amy,I dont see why Ozma cant marry >Dan. Isnt Ozma supposed to be about 15-16 years old too? ... >I wonder what made RPT think that Ozma was a little girl when >Baum clearly states that she is about 14-16. RPT may have been thinking along the same lines as Chris Dulabone, who sites Baum's illness during the writing of _Tin W._ as the reason for his "error". So Baum's specific statement of Ozma being 14-16 is rejected as heresy and the vaguer phrase "little girl" (which could in those days mean any woman under 18) is interpreted in modern context to mean pre-teen and is accepted as holy scripture. J.L. Bell ( A friend too, just not on *this* issue :) ) wrote: >For almost all her other princesses, Thompson did indeed supply such >suitors. She shied away from doing so for Ozma. Indeed, she presented the >suggestion of a husband for Ozma as a fate we should root against (JACK >PUMPKINHEAD), or at least as a bad plan for characters we like (KABUMPO)... But as Ozma herself says, she "hardly knew" Pompa, and the other marriage proposals she's received were hardly from ideal husbands. >That strongly implies that Thompson knew most readers did *not* welcome >that prospect. Thompson *assumed* that... She didn't *know*... We don't yet *know* what general audience reaction will be if Ozma recieves a proposal from someone who has proved himself worthy of her. (But we will!) >Incidentally, in my months on the Digest, I've never seen anyone >criticize your ideas about Ozma's interests and eligibility in terms as >harsh as those you use yourself. You weren't around in the early days when I first proposed this story. I really got it with both barrels then. Nowadays, I think the most vicious attackers have got it all off their chests and now the debate is more *intellegent and reasonable.* ( That was a hint to all those who want this current round of the debate to continue :) ) I think this debate should exist... I just don't understand why some insist on making it into such a polarizing issue. FWIW, I consider you, John, to be my most worthy and respected opponent on this issue because your arguments are based on intellegent and much- believed-in principles. And just so there's no misunderstanding, I do *not* think Robert Bakker's theories are "heretical"... :) JEREMY: >I can't tell you how much I enjoy reading the dialogue you insert into your >postings. Please keep at it! Thanks! :) >Incidentally, who will be publishing your book when it comes out? (You may >have said that already, b ut the last few months have been hectic for me, >what with finishing school for the year, being sick, and all, so I don't >remember.) Chis Dulabone ("Tails of the Cowardly Lion and Friends") will be publishing _Locasta and the Three Adepts of Oz_. _That Ozzy Feeling_ (which is now split into _Jellia of Oz_, and _Romance in Oz_ so that Dan's adventures in Oz make a trilogy) will be submitted to March Laumer. That doesn't mean that he'll definitely publish it, but he's at least considering it, which is more than other Oz publishers will do... BCF: David G. wrote: >I don't mean to put a damper on this plan, and I'm not complaining, but it's >been my experience (at least so far this year) that it takes several months >to get anything you order from IWOC... Don't wait until the last >minute. I'd advise ordering Grampa, Lost King, and Hungry Tiger _now_ so as >to have time to get them and read them before they become BCFs. Actually, I'm afraid this has been my experience too, but several months seems so long... Here's what I'll do: On Monday, October 25 (The week after the South Winkie Convention) I'll ask how many have gotten hold of _Cowardly Lion_ and if many people are still waiting for their copies I'll give it 'til after the holidays, and then we'll start. Sorry to put the BCF discussions on hold, but I consider this the best solution. Maybe in the meantime this would be a good period in which to discuss some non-Oz Baum books like _Zixi_ or _M. M. of Mo_? But in any case I'll second David's admonission: Don't wait -- Order _C. Lion_, _Grampa_, _Lost King_, and _Hungry Tiger_ *now*! -- Dave ====================================================================== ] c/ \ /___\ *** THE OZZY DIGEST, JUNE 17 - 22, 1999 *** |@ @| | V | \\\ |\_/| | ;;; \-/ \ ;/ >< ] ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:08:50 -0700 From: Brenda Grigsby (Non-Digest member) Subject: tinman i was wondering if you knew what the wizard called the tinman? could you please help me! nwdg@coinet.com thank you ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:24:11 -0400 From: "Aaron Solomon (ben Saul Joseph) Adelman" Subject: Deaging in Oz Tyler, for the record, I never theorized that Ozma was deaged. My theory was that Mombi transformed Ozma into a slow-aging form, such as a turtle, when she was still a baby. Thus Ozma could be a baby at the end of Pastoria's reign and yet be 10-12 at Jinjur's revolt without the Wizard's reign being fantastically short. Aaron -- Aaron Solomon (ben Saul Joseph) Adelman Pioneer Aviation adelmaas@musc.edu http://www.musc.edu/~adelmaas/ ====================================================================== From: Nathan Mulac DeHoff Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-16-99 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:48:55 PDT Gehan: >Baum does say that Ozma comes from a long line of fairy kings and queens in >_Scarecrow_,but as John Belle pointed out,he doesnt say that she descends >from a long line of fairy kings and queens from OZ and so she doesnt neednt >be Pastoria's biological daughter. Actually, I believe that Baum only mentions queens, not kings. >RPT mentions in one of her books that Ozma lived with Mombi for atleast >nine >years after Mombi transformed her into Tip. So RPT obviously means to say >that Ozma is nine years old but I very much doubt that. I think she's about >16-17. I believe that the figure of nine years was given by Jack Pumpkinhead in the book that bears his name. His head was somewhat over-ripe at the time, though, so we don't necessarily need to accept the figure as absolute truth. >Oziana: >Maybe _Oziana_ can be emailed onto the Digest? I believe that the funds from _Oziana_ go toward supporting the International Wizard of Oz Club, so I don't think that that would be a very good idea. >Accodring to _Silver Princess_ Peg >gave birth to a baby and that means that eighteen year old Pompa had s** >with her. Not necessarily. Pompa could have aged a few years in between _Kabumpo_ and Pajonia's birth (or Pajonia could have been brought by the stork, but I don't really like that theory). >*.Could someone please tell me what the High Preists have to do with Oz? Which High Priests would these be? There certainly don't seem to be any priests in the FF, although one of Wutz's agents does dress as a monk in _Handy Mandy_. In one of my Oz stories, there are some fairly generic priests in the Quadling kingdom of Tralmia, but the story isn't really canonical. >*.In _Wizard_,Glinda is said to have worn a white gown and her red hair was >supposed to fall in ringlets. Yet in other Oz Books, Glinda is dressed in >pink,red or other colours and her hair seems to be all tied up. Was it one >of John R.Neill's mistakes? An alteration in the way in which Neill drew Glinda doesn't necessarily constitute a mistake. >Did Baum want to change her looks later? Possibly, but I don't think that Baum made that much mention of Glinda's looks in his later books. >Or does Glinda change her clothes and her hair-style often like Ozma >and >Dorothy? Quite possibly. As for her clothes, I would imagine that she probably changes them every day (although there might be a certain style in which she usually dresses). >She looks different from -Wizard_ in _Land_,and she looks even different in >the other Oz books. Well, _Wizard_ and _Land_ were illustrated by different people, and Neill hadn't quite developed his typical Oz style when he was illustrating _Land_, so this is understandable. >*.If Princess Langwidere was so interested in Dorothy's head,why didnt she >want Ozma's head too? Ozma's head is supposed to be mcuh prettier than >Dorothy's Or maybe she was too angry to notice Ozma's beauty at that >time,perhaps? Langwidere was aware that Ozma was a powerful ruler, and she didn't want to anger the Queen of Oz by threatening to take her head. Dorothy, on the other hand, was a relatively helpless young girl, and Langwidere did not foresee any trouble arising from an involuntary head trade with her. >You have mentioned about most of them, on my Oz Roleplaying Game and so I >was wondering..... That reminds me that I said I would join the role-playing game, but I never actually got around to it. If I can decide on a character (or two), I'll probably start playing pretty soon, if that's all right. J. L. Bell: >For little children, >knowing where parents are is very important; Baum took care to state that >Dorothy was an orphan, that Trot's father was at sea, and so on. (Betsy >didn't get this treatment, but in many ways she seems to be only sketched >in.) Later authors followed Baum's lead on this detail. Not always. There is no mention of what might have happened to Jenny Jump's parents. Both Gureeda and Pretty Good have fathers, but their mothers are not mentioned in the text. There might be other examples, too. Jeremy: >I have a terrible, nasty, idea about why Ozma was de-aged: MAYBE IT WAS AN >ACCIDENT!!! Actually, that might make an amusing story. John Kennedy: >I'm inclined to disagree. The description of the voice on the record >and the rhythm of the lyric (which has one too many "loo's" to fit >any bluesy tune I can imagine for it) suggest to me not a "race record" >(did such even exist at this early date?) but a "coon song", meant to >be sung (in live performance) by a white singer in blackface. Eric Shanower and David Maxine presented a few examples of "coon songs" at the 1997 Munchkin Convention, and one of them was quite similar to "My Lulu." Dave Hardenbrook: >I just got an E-mail from someone asking if the "Oz Digest" is a >fan club for Oz -- as in Oz of _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_. Sigh. Since I don't watch that show, I don't know who or what "Oz" is (on that show, that is). Is it a place, a character, or what? >Then there are some others who really leave the impression that they think >that carnal romance is fundamentally dirty and evil and must not be allowed >to pollute certain "pure" Ozites (mostly the non-evil female magic >workers). >As far I can tell this attitude seems unique to Oz. I believe there are other examples of literary magic-workers who cannot become involved in such carnal romance. Terry Pratchett spoofs the idea in his Discworld books (although he makes it clear that the REAL reason why wizards can't have sexual relations is because of the danger of ultra-powerful Sourcerers being born). >That Ozzy Feeling_ (which is now >split into _Jellia of Oz_, and _Romance in Oz_ so that Dan's adventures in >Oz make a trilogy) will be submitted to March Laumer. Was _That Ozzy Feeling_ originally planned to be part of Melody Grandy's Seven Blue Mountains trilogy? I seem to recall hearing that at some point. >Maybe in the meantime this would be a good period in which to discuss some >non-Oz Baum books like _Zixi_ or _M. M. of Mo_? Sounds like a good idea to me. Nathan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:40:13 -0500 From: "R. M. Atticus Gannaway" Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-16-99 DAVID GODWIN: >Were animal rights activists around at the time PGOz was written? If so, >could Baum have been satirizing them in the person of the Tin Woodman, who >is willing to let Unc Nunkie and Margolotte remain marble statues forever >rather than dismember a yellow butterfly? I can cite at least one major pre-Patchwork instance of such activism. The Audobon Society originally arose in the 1890s to combat the bird-hat craze that was decimating avian populations. In 1900 Congress passed the Lacey Act, which prohibited interstate transport of wild species killed in violation of state laws. Ms. Helen Winslow, editor of the magazine _Club Woman_, editorialized that "a dead bird's body...on a fashionable hat...is positively repulsive...[but] anything to be in the fashion, even if we have to wear our grandmother for a chatelaine ornament." Or tear the wings off a butterfly. Birds were praised for their "natural" beauty, and the mother bird became a symbol of the conservation movement, inciting pity and outrage (anthropomorphically). Atticus * * * "She reads at such a pace," she complained, "and when I asked her *where* she had learnt to read so quickly she replied, 'On the screens at Cinemas.'" Visit my webpage at http://members.aol.com/atty993 ====================================================================== From: Kiex@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:54:48 EDT Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-16-99 An Alaskan Dilemma: Nome or Gnome? I think Baum spelled it Nome in order to be easier for his readers to read. RPT, on the other hand, what with her fairy tale, conservative mindset (I use conservative not in the political sense but in the way she structures her stories), spelled it Gnome because she was more interested in literal accuracy (rather than in continuity--much the way the picture was turned upside down by an editor in one book in an effort to make it rightside-up . . .). So technically they're the same animal, so to speak. We could also say that since Baum got his info via wireless telegraph (I don't remember how RPT got hers), he wasn't sure how to spell it . . . but that's not likely. Interpreting Oz: I just read the books for pleasure. Maybe that makes me less of a literary researcher, oh well . . . BCFs: Here's an idea: since I assume Cowardly Lion is in public domain, someone could maybe get an internet version of the text and put it on a website, thereby allowing everyone to at least read it. Or has that been done already? Ozma's de-aging: When I suggested that maybe it was a mistake, I meant an accident, someone with lots of magic power let it get out of hand. (I repeat that because Dave didn't pick up on it, and I know he's a great Ozma fan.) Every magician makes mistakes at times, and even great fairies must. So Ozma got deaged (if she did), by mistake (oops, left the cauldron boiling too long, oops, said a wrong word in that spell there, but hey, at least it'll keep the true ruler of Oz disguised for awhile . . .) or however. Well, that's an idea, anyway. Until later, Jeremy of the Rotten Pun ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:13:48 -0400 From: "J. L. Bell" Subject: Fairies cross the Mersey Tyler Jones wrote (and Nathan DeHoff seconded the point): <> Indeed, YEW and other Baum books hint that every country was a fairyland in the past. Lurline's actions in Oz seem rather specific: granting the people immortality, perhaps letting animals talk in human fashion (they do so in some neighboring countries, but not in others), and granting particular boons like the Flatheads' brains. She seems to have made Oz more magical than most other lands, but she built on magic that already existed in the world. One stumbling-block complicating further inquiry is that Baum seems to use the word "fairy" in two different ways. There are some creatures he identifies only as fairies (Lurline's band, for instance), and others whom he writes are types of fairies known by other names (Daughters of the Rainbow, ryls, mermaids, even Nomes). In TIK-TOK the Nomes say all native Ozians are in some sense fairies. SANTA CLAUS seems alone in consistently using the term "immortals" instead. It would have been useful if Baum had differentiated between Fairies (youthful female immortals who dance in gauzy dresses in forests and occasionally fly around the world) and fairies (all immortal magic-workers connected with parts of the natural world, including knooks, fairy beavers, and cloud-pushers). Bands of Fairies may not be necessary for magic, but some sort of fairies might be. To complicate things further, the Queen of Light in TIK-TOK and the Daemon of Electricity in MASTER KEY state that what we consider nature, science, and technology are intimately connected with what we would consider fairy magic. Electrical energy is one manifestation of the fairy realm, and fairies may be some manifestation of energy. Speaking of that intersection between magic, science, and nature, here's a theory: The strange creatures who inhabit Oz are evolutionary dead ends in a land with no death. Had living snowmen, Loons, or Flatheads been born in the Outside World, they would have died quickly before having the chance to propagate. But natural selection relies on death, and once Lurline made Ozians immortal, it could no longer shut down any branches of the human family tree. (Of course, there are bigger holes in that theory than there are in a Nobody.) Tyler Jones wrote: <> This seems to project a particular form of royal succession onto fairies, but there's no reason to assume that our human experience applies to them. TIK-TOK, for instance, shows a society made up of many fairy queens and kings. Even if we take "a long line of fairy queens" to require a series of rulers, there are other possible ways to explain that. Imagine, for instance, that new fairies are born when they split like amoebas--or at least that that's the best way we poor humans can perceive this process. Each of the two fairies produced by that split would have different experiences, thus developing a different personality and identity, but no one could say which was the original. Thus, one fairy queen could split into two, then into four, some perhaps leading new bands elsewhere. This process would go on until one split produces the fairy who became Ozma. There would thus simultaneously be a "long line of fairy queens" and immortal beings. Another possibility is that fairy queens rule for tremendously long periods of time by human standards but, as we see fairies do in YEW and IX, they occasionally become bored. One might therefore abdicate her post for another. Again we'd have a line of fairy queens without breaking the rule of immortality. Ozga in TIK-TOK is a fairy ruler who seems to be born when she was picked from her rose bush--or perhaps when her rose bush was planted--or perhaps before that. Again, our human-centered assumptions don't apply. We simply don't know enough about fairies to say definitely what "born of a long line of fairy queens" means. Furthermore, it seems out of balance to use that vague phrase tossed off by a Royal Historian for whom consistency was never a priority to toss out another Royal Historian's comprehensive account of Ozma's origin. Had Baum made a full, coherent statement about where Ozma came from, his remarks would carry more weight than Snow's--but he didn't. David Godwin wrote: <> The 19th century saw the beginning of the movement against killing animals for dubious purposes, such as birds for hats, and there were some people who proclaimed animals had souls like humans. But among those people were Theosophists, whom Baum was more likely to support. Nick Chopper's concern for the yellow butterfly in PATCHWORK GIRL is consistent with his character ever since the early chapters of WIZARD, when he cries after stepping on a bug. It's also consistent with a society in which animals are revealed to be as intelligent as humans. If Ojo should be able to tear apart a butterfly to restore his uncle, shouldn't a butterfly be able to tear Ojo apart if that would help her cousin get out of his cocoon? David Godwin wrote: <> Careful with those political generalizations! Thirty years ago the Republican party was the one insisting on greater respect for government authority. In the long run, I suspect parties' attitudes toward authorities depend largely on whether they *are* the authorities. David Godwin wrote: <> True, though Benjamin Franklin, in a 1789 letter to Noah Webster, proposed adopting the Spanish "upside-down question mark" symbol for exactly this purpose--indicating when one is writing ironically. (Of course, Franklin might have been writing ironically, as he did in his "invention" of daylight savings time.) Dave Hardenbrook wrote: <> Dave here is referring to a note I sent him a while back about why a book culminating in Ozma's marriage doesn't seem to match one criterion of the Centennial Book Contest, consistency with Baum's vision of Oz. My observation was that after Ozma takes the throne of Oz in LAND, the country reaches a stasis. Some Americans come to Oz, some Ozians come to the Emerald City, and some small countries in and around Oz go through significant changes, but Oz as a whole is thereafter ruled steadily by Ozma, with Glinda, the Tin Woodman, and the loyalty of her subjects helping. Subsequent books always trace a return to that status quo ante, restoring that arrangement and removing threats from it. It seems significant that the books that cause the most squawk among Oz fans are those that do create changes in the capital, by removing a character (Sir Hokus) or changing its character (WONDER CITY). Thompson seems to make significant changes outside the Emerald City in GIANT HORSE, but (a) we see in subsequent books that those changes actually have little or no effect on society, and (b) fans such as Dave himself reject some of them. Therefore, while I don't insist on "no change" in Oz, especially if a well-written, entertaining book presents a convincing alternative, I do think Oz fans of all ages look to the Emerald City for fundamental consistency. (As they look to other fantasy lands as well.) Dave Hardenbrook wrote: <> As I recall, my remark was in response to a half-serious suggestion that Thompson received letters from actual readers asking for Ozma to wed. That supposition seems far less grounded than the belief that she, an experienced writer for children, was aware of her audience's desire for consistency. Dave Hardenbrook wrote: <> A ha! You do want to inject sex into Oz! Actually, I suspect John W. Kennedy might be able to confirm that the immaculate conception refers to Mary's arrival into this world without sin, rather than Jesus's arrival without having been conceived through sex. I received my spring 1999 BAUM BUGLE yesterday. Bill Stillman and his fellow editors indeed deserve praise for issuing the magazine on schedule, especially this spring when they (with contributor Eric Shanower) probably had to scramble to produce a timely tribute to Rachel Cosgrove Payes. This issue contains an intersting study of ZIXI artist Frederick Richardson by Martin Gardner and Ruth Berman, book reviews by Atticus Gannaway and Sean Duffley, and (I'm very pleased to say) my first BUGLE publications after 20+ years of reading the journal. J. L. Bell JnoLBell@compuserve.com ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:39:08 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Willard Carroll book Lots of digests still in my inbox while I've been busy. Here's a link for a new book of Willard Carroll's Oz collection, in case it hasn't been mentioned. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556709404/qid%3D929680664/002-729978 5-3011233 ================================================= Scott Andrew Hutchins http://php.iupui.edu/~sahutchi Oz, Monsters, Kamillions, and More! "Love is not a positive emotion that begins in us and ends in the positive response of someone else. Love is divine energy that comes from God and has no end." --Eric Butterworth ====================================================================== From: CruentiDei@cs.com Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 01:32:12 EDT Subject: Oz Gehan: True, Ozma does not need to be Pastoria's biological daughter in order to fit the evidence of the FF, but neither does she need NOT to be, unless you accept Snow's statement to the exclusion of all else. I'm rather leaning to Dave Hardenbrook's new theory, which convers all of the evidence in the FF as well as much evidence in other stories such as _Lurline and the White Ravens_ and _OZ and the Three Witches_. I don't know how much of this Dave wants mentioned before his book comes out, so I'll stop there. Except to say that while I am leaning toward the idea of Lurline giving the baby Ozma to a bachelor Pastoria, I beleive Oz was enchanted much earlier than that, and I still believe that magic was around in Oz even before that. Ozma's age is a burning question. While Baum states that she is at least a couple of years into her teens, there are those who believe her to be at most 8 or even younger. Too, many say that in Ozma's case, age does not matter. In her heart and spirit, she is forever a little girl, above all baser desires. I am not one of these, but I am clearly in the minority. Gehan again: In _Wizard_, Baum made an issue of the fact that Good Witches always wore white, so Glinda did too, before he decided to make her a sorceress. After that, the authors and illustrators dressed her in the traditional colors of her native land. Langwidere probably wanted Ozma's head, but she turned on the mojo and overpowered her as soon as they met, so Langwidere was probably afraid to try and take it. Nomes, Gnomes, and Knomes: According to Baum, Nome means "One who knows". One who knows where all the valuable treasure under the earth is located. Nomes-with-an-"N" appear to be rock fairies. Nomes-with-a-"GN", according to most stories, are small human-like creatures living in forests, and sometimes underground. IMHO, Baum clearly meant "Nomes" to be different from Gnomes". FYI, "Knomes" is a compromise spelling proposed by Chris Dulabone. Many have joined the Digest, and many have departed. Over the past 3.5 years, membership has been quite fluid. Others, like myself, have been a rock, here from the beginning and here 'til the end. :-) John Kennedy: Thanks for the discourse on the difference between backspace and delete. Tyler Jones ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:01:06 +1000 From: Gehan Cooray Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-16-99 Nathan: I think you made a mistake. I wrote those quotes, not David Godwin. Doug Torrance: You're theory on Ozma is really great! David (Godwin): I agree with you. Nick Chopper is really heartless in _Patchwork in Girl of Oz_ to rather let Dame Margolotte and Unk.Nunkie remain marble statues forever rather than cutting the left wing of a yellow butterfly. Surely the wing can be revived again by a wish? Speaking of wishes, why didnt Dr.Pipt use his wishing pills to bring the marble statues back to life? IWOC: I ordered lots of Oz Books from IWOC in early January and I received the books somewhere in late February/somewhere in March. If it only took two and a half months to receive the books here in SriLanka it should only take a month/month and a half or so to get them in America. Dave: Just one question.....if Mombi banished Locasta from Oz AFTER Mombi was defeated,how did Mombi become with of the north again? The Ozites would have known that Locasta was missing? Unless Mombi enchanted their minds to make them forget Locasta and make them think that she was their queen. But was she powerfu; enough to do that? And did she have enough power to enchant Glinda's and the Wizard's mind? Untill next time! --Gehan ========================================================================= In all the world theres no place like home......exepct Oz ====================================================================== Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:07:13 +1000 From: Gehan Cooray Subject: Ozzy Things In one of her books, RPT says that Ozma lived with Mombi as Tip for nearly nine years. Since Mombi enchanted Pastoria and Pajuka years before the Wizard came to Oz,we can assume that Mombi couldnt find Ozma and she gave up on her. Its possible that Pastoria's wife was hiding with Ozma.....perhaps in a secret tower or a secret room in Morrow. I mean,she couldnt have lived in Morrow all by herself,being a baby. Then the queen probably fell ill(even though she was a fairy)and she probably told the Wizard to look after Ozma.....but he gave her to old Mombi instead. BTW,Ozma tells Trot that she descends from Lurline's band of fairies. As you know,_Scarecrow of Oz_ says that she descends from a long line of fairy kings and queens but since it doesnt say that the kings and queens are those from Oz,it plainly shows that she descends from fairy kings and queens from Lurline's band. As I said before,I believe that Pastoria married a fairy princess from Lurline's band. One guess is that the fairy princess had already given birth to Ozma when she married Pastoria. This shows that she isnt his biological daughter but it shows that she CAN be thousands of years old. I think that Ozma was already a young lady when her mother married Pastoria,but then she de-aged her because Pastoria wanted to expereince the fun of raising a baby. However, this contradicts Jack Snow's theory on Ozma. BTW,why didnt Lurline tell Ozma that Pastoria was alive and told her to disenchant him at Blankenburg? And surely Tattypoo would have looked into the Witch's windwo atleast once....and seen her past? Atleast by mistake. She couldnt have never looked at it during all her 25 years in Mombi's hut.....Its hard to believe. Untill next time! --Gehan ========================================================== In all the world theres no place like home......exepct Oz ====================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 08:17:28 CST From: "Ruth Berman" Subject: animals in oz David Godwin: The activities that now get described as animal rights activism were likewise active at the turn of the century. The usual label then was antivivesectionism. I think the Puritans in the 16th century were the first to start campaigning in a large way against such activities as bearbaiting, although every culture has had at least some people arguing in various ways for kindness to animals. (I think it was G.K. Chesterton who complained that the Puritans objected to bearbaiting not because it was hard on the bears but because it was fun for the humans -- but this view hardly does justice to the Puritans.) Dave Hardenbrook: I can't see any point to discussing "the controversial subject (of Ozma's marriage and/or marriageability)" (in J.L. Bell's phrase). If one insists on the "Tin Woodman" view of no- aging-in-Oz-at-all, then there's some small point to asking if Ozma is old enough to get married, but on the RPT view of "aging-in-Oz-on- demand," even that detail is pointless, because Ozma could choose to grow a few years older if she wished to. The general theoretical question of "Could characters like Ozma, Polychrome, Glinda, or the 3 Adapts be imagined as getting married?" has a simple answer: "Yes. Baum's Gayelette did, after all." The real question isn't theoretical but practical: "Would readers like a a story about Ozma in love?" And that question can only be answered with regard to specific stories. Until your (or anyone else's) Ozma-romance-story is published, so that readers can read it and see how they like it, there's not much use to going over the question of whether the readers who think they wouldn't like such a story could be talked into thinking that they might. No such argument would change minds. It's a proof-of-the-pudding situation, and the pudding hasn't been published yet. Waiting until October 25 to discuss "Cowardly Lion" -- that may be necessary if there really are Digest participants who want to take part in the discussion and hadn't already sent off for copies of it, but I wonder if there actually are some in that situation? If there aren't any, the long wait would be unnecessary? Or perhaps if there are some who expected that they could get a copy in a month and ordered a month ago, a start-date of mid-September would be enough accommodation? Ruth Berman ====================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 10:20:10 (PDT) From: Dave Hardenbrook Subject: Ozzy Things NATHAN: >>I just got an E-mail from someone asking if the "Oz Digest" is a >>fan club for Oz -- as in Oz of _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_. Sigh. >Since I don't watch that show, I don't know who or what "Oz" is (on that >show, that is). Is it a place, a character, or what? I gather she's a female character. Jellia: In which case she should really be named "Ozma"! >Was _That Ozzy Feeling_ originally planned to be part of Melody Grandy's >Seven Blue Mountains trilogy? I seem to recall hearing that at some point. Not part of the trilogy per se, but definitely taking place in Melody's sub-universe, for a subplot was to be that Zim is courting Glinda. But for complicated reasons she's decided to have Zim marry Maggie instead. RPT: Jeremy wrote: >RPT, on the other hand, what with her fairy tale, >conservative mindset (I use conservative not in the political sense >but in the way she structures her stories)... Do you mean her stories are more "formula based" while Baum was more innovative? If so, then I'm inclined to agree, at least from the RPT I've read... IMHO the best RPT as a story is _Wishing Horse_, even though as you know I have a soft spot for _Ozoplaning_ because of Jellia's involvment. FAIRIES: John Bell wrote: >Indeed, YEW and other Baum books hint that every country was a fairyland in >the past. Is this one reason why Yew is considered in a different universe from Nonestica? >One stumbling-block complicating further inquiry is that Baum seems to >use the word "fairy" in two different ways... In TIK-TOK the Nomes say all >native Ozians are in some sense fairies. And elsewhere doesn't Baum call Ozites "fairy people"? So I make it *three* ways he uses fairy... Does this mean that Jellia is a fairy?? In the original manuscript for _That Ozzy Feeling_, Zurline and Necile have the following dialogue...This is *not* a spoiler, since it doesn't look like I will be using this scene nor what they are currently discussing in the final version of "The Dan Trilogy", but it *is* relevant to the current point of discussion: "He will never die...He told me that he is a native Ozite and therefore immortal," said Necile. "Oh, he is an immortal mortal, eh?" Zurline replied, "Well, I shall revoke his immortality, then he shall be a mortal mortal!" "What???" "It's very simple -- in the sentence I last uttered, the first 'mortal' refers to someone who shall someday die, the second 'mortal' means 'non-fairy'. Native Ozites are immortal in the sense that they will never die, but they are not true fairies like us; so, their infinite life expectancies notwithstanding, they are ordinary mortals in every way..." OZMA'S AGE: Tyler wrote: >Ozma's age is a burning question. While Baum states that she is at least a >couple of years into her teens, there are those who believe her to be at most >8 or even younger. Too, many say that in Ozma's case, age does not matter. In >her heart and spirit, she is forever a little girl, above all baser desires. >I am not one of these, but I am clearly in the minority. I still have faith that the "silent majority" is at least neutral if not supportive of my views on the Ozma issue and will give my books a fair chance. All I know is, when I bring the subject up at the South Winkie Convention, they don't feel inclined to lynch me. :) BCF: Jeremy wrote: >Here's an idea: since I assume Cowardly Lion is in public domain... Nope... If it were PD, BoW would probably be publishing it... You can thank your Congress for passing legistation to extend copyrights another 25 years, meaning _CWOz_ won't go PD until 2024. Ruth wrote: >Waiting until October 25 to discuss "Cowardly Lion" -- that may be >necessary if there really are Digest participants who want to take part >in the discussion and hadn't already sent off for copies of it, but I >wonder if there actually are some in that situation? Well, let's do _Zixi_, _MMM_, and possibly _L. & A. of Santa Claus_(?) and then see after each how many have obtained _C. Lion_. Which of the above should we do first? Please cast your votes, folks. -- Dave ====================================================================== ] c/ \ /___\ *** THE OZZY DIGEST, JUNE 23 - 24, 1999 *** |@ @| | V | \\\ |\_/| | ;;; \-/ \ ;/ >< ] ====================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:11:39 -0400 From: "J. L. Bell" Subject: let's call the whole thing Oz Nathan DeHoff, my comment that "Later authors followed Baum's lead on this detail," was aimed only at the detail of not mentioning Ozma's mother. But thanks for the run-down on other motherless princesses. (That situation does seem to have more appeal to Thompson and/or her readers than fatherless princesses.) Ruth Berman, the phrase "the controversial subject (of Ozma's marriage and/or marriageability)" actually came from Dave Godwin's keyboard. I'll take credit, though. Jeremy Steadman wrote: <> "Accuracy" assuming that Nomes are indeed what previous fairy tales called gnomes. But if Roquat's subjects are actually Nomes, and gnomes are imaginary beings real Nomes would disdain, then Baum was accurate. Baum, of course, tried out "gnome king" in his SANTA CLAUS. And a gnome king appears in ZAUBERLINDA, the most slavish of the early WIZARD imitators. I don't see any reason for "knome." That's like suggesting the proper pronunciation of "tomato" be TOM-eh-tuh. In response to my remark, "YEW and other Baum books hint that every country was a fairyland in the past," Dave Hardenbrook wrote: <> I think the reasoning there is that YEW makes clear that the island is no longer enchanted, that the magical adventures it describes occurred centuries before. If Yew is in the Nonestic as close as the Oz Club map puts it, therefore, it's an island of non-magic in a bewitched region. From what we know about that area, it seems more likely that Yew is in our Outside World, known by another name (Corsica? Taiwan? Ireland?). The most important implication of YEW is that American, Europe, and other civilized countries were once fairylands, too. And indeed Baum left several examples of fairies intruding onto those continents or taking credit for events there, implying that fairy magic still works in "civilization" even if immortals don't hang around visibly. Dave Hardenbrook wrote: <> I suggest we follow Baum's development as a writer by starting with MO. Has the Digest already digested JOHN DOUGH, YEW, MASTER KEY, and [shudder] DOT & TOT? J. L. Bell JnoLBell@compuserve.com ====================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:18:58 -0400 From: Michael Turniansky Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-22-99 Jeremy: > We could also say that since Baum got his info via wireless telegraph (I > don't remember how RPT got hers), he wasn't sure how to spell it [g/nome]. . . > but > that's not likely. > Bzzt! Not telePHONE but telegraph, which would have necessitated everything having been spelled out explicitly. Now, unless his _correspondent_ didn't know how to spell it.... J. Bell: > Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > <> > > A ha! You do want to inject sex into Oz! > Actually, I suspect John W. Kennedy might be able to confirm that the > immaculate conception refers to Mary's arrival into this world without sin, > rather than Jesus's arrival without having been conceived through sex. > That is correct. It is the doctorine that Mary was conceived without the stain of Original Sin, and therefore a fitting vessel for bearing J. Love your theory about the evolutionary dead-ends surviving in anti-Darwinism.. Ruth Berman: > > Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 08:17:28 CST > From: "Ruth Berman" > Subject: animals in oz > > David Godwin: The activities that now get described as animal rights > activism were likewise active at the turn of the century. The usual > label then was antivivesectionism. I think the Puritans in the 16th > century were the first to start campaigning in a large way against such > activities as bearbaiting, although every culture has had at least some > people arguing in various ways for kindness to animals. Of course, it goes back way before the Puritans. The Talmud (in Bava Metzia) declares cruelty to animals to be a law from the Torah itself, as evidenced by the Torah prohibitions against muzzling an animal working in the field or threshing grain, slaughtering a cow and its calf in the same day, and the positive commandment to shoo away a mother bird from the nest before gathering the eggs, etc. Sure, just go ahead and delay Cowardly Lion, one of the few books I have (Del Rey edition)! :-( (actually, I really don't care, since I never join in the BCF discussions, anyway) (insert spanish upside question mark here :) --Mike "Shaggy Man" Turniansky ====================================================================== From: CruentiDei@cs.com Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:58:41 EDT Subject: Oz Kiex: Under the old copyright laws, _Cowardly Lion_ should have done Public Domain at the stroke of New Year's Eve six months ago. However, the new copyright laws make this book copyright for another 25 years. Until January 1, 2024, it is off limits. That is, unless Congress decides to extend it again. John Bell: Maybe fairies are differentiated, but Baum just didn't take the effort to put it down on paper. Your arguements are most persuasive. Indeed, the "born of a long line of fairy queens" line is vague and isloated compared with Snow's comprehensive statement. Since I accept non-FF books as well, though, I use the evidence in _Oz and the Three Witches_, which could still be rationalized with Snow's account. I am definitely moving to accepting Snow's account, with some alterations to include the story in _Oz & 3 Witches_. Gehan: Setting aside the anceitn question of the identities of Drs. Pipt and Nikidik (as to whether or not they are the same person), maybe the pills took even longer to make than the Powder of Life. I've forgotten Dave's chronology of his book, so he can better answer the whole Mombi/GWN thing better than I can. ********** SPOILER FOR OZ AND THE THREE WITCHES ********** In the non-FF _Oz and the Three Witches_, which I generally accept as accurate, the Wizard finds Ozma as a baby with an old nurse who cannot speak or communicate at all. He is aware of some prophetic meaning behind the baby, and gives to Mombi for protection against the other two Wicked Witches, who he believes mean more harm to Ozma than Mombi. ********** END OF SPOILER ********** Tyler Jones ====================================================================== From: Ozmama@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:01:25 EDT Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-16-99 Gehan: <> _Oziana_ is the fiction magazine of the Int'l. Wizard of Oz Club. It is available through subscription only. Please feel free to order it from the Club. ====================================================================== From: Nathan Mulac DeHoff Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-22-99 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:23:36 PDT Tyler: >According to Baum, Nome means "One who knows". One who knows where all the >valuable treasure under the earth is located. Nomes-with-an-"N" appear to >be >rock fairies. Nomes-with-a-"GN", according to most stories, are small >human-like creatures living in forests, and sometimes underground. IMHO, >Baum clearly meant "Nomes" to be different from Gnomes". "Gnome" could just as easily mean "one who knows," especially if Baum was pointing out the similarity to the Greek "gignoskein" (to know), from which words such as "gnostic" are derived. Gehan: >Just one question.....if Mombi banished Locasta from Oz AFTER Mombi was >defeated,how did Mombi become with of the north again? The Ozites would >have >known that Locasta was missing? Unless Mombi enchanted their minds to make >them forget Locasta and make them think that she was their queen. But was >she powerfu; enough to do that? And did she have enough power to enchant >Glinda's and the Wizard's mind? I don't know about Glinda, but the Wizard probably didn't have much impact on the area outside the central green country during his time as ruler. (After secluding himself in his room, he probably didn't even have much impact on the Emerald City itself.) >BTW,why didnt Lurline tell Ozma that Pastoria was alive and told her to >disenchant him at Blankenburg? Lurline works in mysterious ways, I suppose. Dave Hardenbrook: >John Bell wrote: > >Indeed, YEW and other Baum books hint that every country was a >fairyland >in the past. > >Is this one reason why Yew is considered in a different universe from >Nonestica? Perhaps, but I think that the Oz books occasionally hint that fairies do exist in the Great Outside World. > >One stumbling-block complicating further inquiry is that Baum >seems to > >use the word "fairy" in two different ways... In TIK-TOK the Nomes >say >all native Ozians are in some sense fairies. > >And elsewhere doesn't Baum call Ozites "fairy people"? So I make it >*three* ways he uses fairy... Does this mean that Jellia is a >fairy?? I suppose she's a "fairy person" (whatever that is), but not a fairy in any other sense of the word. (The reference that you mention is in _Emerald City_, by the way.) Nathan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:27:16 +1000 From: Gehan Cooray Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-22-99 Nathan: >Not necessarily. Pompa could have aged a few years in between _Kabumpo_ and >Pajonia's birth (or Pajonia could have been brought by the stork, but I >don't really like that theory). I dont think Pompa aged a few years between _Kabumpo_ and _Silver Princess_ because he says that he will be 18 every year,on every birthday. I love your iedia of Pajonia being brought by the stork. >Which High Priests would these be? I was talking of the "High Priests" who criticize Dave's upcoming Oz books. He emailed me and told me whom they were. BTW Nathan,you can join the OzzyRoleplaying Game by sending a blank message to ozzyroleplaying-subscribe@egroups.com Princess Languidere: Well, I'm sure Princess Langwdiere would have had enough power to fight Ozma back too. In my upcoming Oz Book, _Princess Langwidere of Oz_,Langwidere has a mother who is an extremely powerful sorceress,but that will be a non-canonical book,and so she couldnt have got help from her in _Ozma_. Dave: I havent read _Zixi_,_Sky Island_ or any of Baum's non-Oz books yet,but I can get a printout from an online test version. Are all of Baum's non-Oz books in public domain? Untill next time! --Gehan ========================================================================= In all the world theres no place like home......exepct Oz ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:30:56 -0500 Subject: Oz From: "David F Godwin" Animal rights: None of those who commented on my question about animal rights activism at the time of PGOz made any distinction between, on the one hand, maiming a yellow butterfly so that Unc Nunkie and Margolotte could be restored to life and, on the other hand, killing animals for the mere sake of vanity, as with bird hats. It seems to me that there is an essential difference, if only of degree. One can advocate the use of experimental animals in the process of medical research on cancer or AIDS without being in favor of hunting whooping cranes or beating and starving the dog - or killing a cool-looking bird for a hat. Similarly, one can oppose using animals for cosmetics research without being a vegetarian. I mean, in the one case, we're talking about de-marbleizing two human beings; in the other, killing a bird to make a hat. Doesn't seem to me like the same thing at all. J. L. Bell commented that the Tin Woodman was only being consistent, and cites the instance of treading on a beetle in WWiz. True, it is in character, but in the case of the beetle the lives of no humans were at stake. The incident in PGOz shows the depth of TW's commitment to harm no living thing, even to the extent of not doing so to help another living thing survive - and therein lies the distinction that led to my question about animal rights activism. I realize that animals in Oz are intelligent and can talk, but does that apply to beetles and butterflies? I can't recall any incident in the FF in which a bug has addressed anyone (with one very notable exception), but I could be wrong. Still, if the Wogglebug could become thoroughly educated while still a small bug, then that implies at least some degree of insect sentience. Incidentally, I wouldn't have harmed the butterfly either. I would have thought that there must be a better way. And sure enough... J. L. Bell wote: >Careful with those political generalizations! Thirty years ago the >Republican party was the one insisting on greater respect for government >authority. I did say "rely on," not "respect," and I meant "rely on" in the sense of "depend on," as in the case of welfare, food stamps, government services, "cradle to grave security," etc. The Republicans have been ragging on the Democrats for being in favor of the government picking up the tab for everything as long as I've been alive (and never the other way around), although I admit that things might have been different in 1899/1900. In any case, my point was that WWiz can be interpreted in a great variety of ways, not that all of those ways are necessarily valid. In this instance, it seems to me that there is a very definite parallel, although almost certainly not intended, between, on the one hand, depending on the Wizard to give you something rather than relying on your own resources, and on the other, depending on the government to provide you with food stamps or rent assistance when you are perfectly capable of earning the money yourself (not that everybody _is_ thus capable, in the real world, but most Republicans most of the time, ever since the days of FDR at least, have put a good deal of emphasis on the fact that some welfare is unjustified and unneeded, just as Dorothy and her friends don't really need the Wizard's help). Gehan: I don't think that wishes are quite as common or powerful in Oz as you seem to. If they were, there would be total chaos, with everyone wishing all manner of incompatible things. Sooner or later some idiot would wish that the universe did not exist, and then what? Personally, I think the invention of the Wish Way was a big mistake. I mean, if its existence and location are known, it seems as if there would be a mass pilgrimage. I can imagine people and others standing in line, stepping up one at a time to make a wish: Ruggedo: I wish I had the Magic Belt again. Langwidere: I wish I had Dorothy's head. Victor Columbia Edison: I wish everyone had to listen to me. Woozy: I wish I had some honeybees. Kiki Aru: I wish I could remember the magic word of transformation. Skeezer: I wish Flathead Mountain were at the bottom of the Nonestic. Flathead: I wish the Skeezers were all at the bottom of the Nonestic. (The Skeezer vanishes.) Poke: I - wish - everyone - Scoodler: Hurry up! Poke: - were - a - Scoodler (shoving aside the Poke): I wish everyone were SOUP! In fantasy literature, there is typically some limit placed on wishes. One principle in wide use seems to be that any wish will be granted by the simplest, most energy-efficient means possible. So if you wish for a million dollars, it's much simpler and easier for the bank to make an error in your favor than for 50,000 twenty-dollar bills to fall out of the sky. If you wish that every wish you make will come true, then you will immediately be eaten by a kalidah (by surprise) in order to save all the energy likely to be involved in granting your every wish. Another theory is that there are evil genies or spirits of some kind in charge of wishes and they will grant every wish in the most perverse manner imaginable. The classic case is "Make me a sandwich!" "Poof! You're a sandwich!" And remember "The Monkey's Paw." And then there's the saying, " Be careful what you wish for. You might get it." - David G. ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 16:07:25 CST From: "Ruth Berman" Subject: orders of Oz J. L. Bell: Enjoyed your pie article and review. Neill's illo seems to dodge showing any pie actually on the victim -- whatever pie is still on his face is hidden behind the npakin he's wiping himself with. I wonder if Neill, thinking it over, decided that he didn't know what pie splatting on a face looked like and didn't want to subject anyone to research to find out, and never mind the "is hit" caption. // I was very happy to see that the presentation of the Richardson material made room for a lot of examples of his drawings. // Atticus' review of "Oz- Story" #4 reminds me that #5 must be out or about to come out, and I should go on and get in my order for a copy, including a story by one J. L. Bell, "Jack Pumpkinhead's Day in Court." Tyler Jones: Baum's etymology of "one who knows" shows that his Nomes are the same beings as his Gnomes (different though they are in moral stature in "Santa Claus"). The word was identified in dictionaries until recently as coming from the Greek gnome (knowledge). Also, his Nome King, with his legions of Nome soldiers, and claim to owning the mineral wealth to be found underground matches up with the portrayals of Gnome Kings in 19th century operettas (with their spectacular march-and-drill scenes) and in other turn-of-the-century Chicago fairy tales such as "Zauberlinda" and "The Jewelled Toad." The idea of Gnomes as woodland creatures is recent, probably the result of the popularity of the "Gnomes" book -- but that book was translated from the Dutch, and the original title was "Kabouter," which is cognate with English "goblins," not "gnomes," even though the concepts overlap enough in concept to make the translation appropriate. And the development of "goblins" in English has been so different from the "kabouter" that it would be misleading to translate the term as "goblins". (I presented a fuller discussion of the history of Gnomes in my Dunkiton pamphlet on the topic.) Nathan DeHoff: Regarding the similarity of the "Lulu" song to "coon" songs" rather than to "race records" -- seems to me the difference between the two doesn't actually make any difference in terms of David Godwin's comment that Baum's "Lulu" is "a rather inept attempt to imitate the black dialect." Whether Baum took the imitation from songs actually sung by Blacks, or from white-in-blackface imitations of Black dialect, "Lulu" still has the racism David G. complained of. Dave Hardenbrook: If no one speaks up as having just ordered "Cowardly Lion" and needing up to four months to have it arrive, my vote would be for going on to "Cowardly Lion" for discussion now. If there are some waiting on orders, then my vote would be for taking "Mo" first, as the earliest of the Borderlands book. I suppose going on to "Santa Claus" and then "Zixi" would be all right, but there are also "Dot and Tot" and "John Dough" in there, and I think both of those are available ("Dot and Tot" without the Denslow illos in a Books of Wonder edition, and "John Dough" still available from Dover Books?). Ruth Berman ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:18:31 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 04-29-99 > ====================================================================== > From: SeraMary@aol.com > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:40:33 EDT > Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 04-22-99 > > i have a question was there ever an oz book where the wicked witch of the > west and or east came back to life and seeked out revenge ? > i am trying to write a book about that if it has not alredy bben done. > it Will be called The Destruction of Oz . > Let me know of what u think of my idea ! > Lisa 22 from Rhode island > ( i would love to be the nezt Royal Historian of Oz ! ) I tried to write a boook like this when I was in sixth grade, but it was lousy and I abandoned it. It had a cool cover, at least in theory. I don't know what I did with it, though. > > Gehan: > Gehan, meet Dirk Gringhuis, probably not related to Newt Gingrich. There is a book about the stories behind the constellations that he did include his last name on. > > >No, but I would think that many (if not most) of us started reading > the Oz books when we were little boys and girls.>> > > Also, nobody ages in Oz! So even if you're around 70 years old, you can > still get that same effect reading an Oz book as somebody who is seven. Remember the seventy year old readers Baum quotes in one of his letters, saying his books are among the best they read. > <> > > No, actually I found it on the IWOC site. Which got its filmography from an old version of mine that I sent (BTW, I really need to update and clean my web version). > >He's the guy behind the Braided Man in the procession. > > Are we looking at the same print of the same film? I cannot detect anyone > at all behind the Braided Man. A bit screen right of him, in line behind him, not directly behind him aesthetically. > > In (2), I think I finally see the guy whom Scott says is the Shaggy Man. > Very briefly. He's standing on the left of the procession in front of a > potted plant, and he's wearing a sort of violet hat. But then who is the > older guy in the parade in the red clothing and with a white beard? That's the one I'm referring to. > > A NON-OZZY PRONOUNCIATION: > While we're on pronounciations, how do you all pronounce "Aslan"? > Most _Narnia_ adaptations seem to say "Ass-LAN", but that always > sounds to me like a computer network for donkeys. :) My dad said > "AS-lan" when he read the books to me, and that's what I use. Your pronunciation is closer to how it's pronounced in Turkish, where it's the word for lion. Of course, a Turkish coworker told me she couldn't understand my pronunciations. Scott ====================================================================== From: "Kenneth R. Shepherd" Subject: Ozzy things Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:54:29 -0400 Ruth Berman: What's the name of the book (and publisher and ISBN)? If it's in the field of history, there are probably a fair number of Digest-readers with enough interest in history to want to try looking it up. (If it's a self-help book, probably a rather smaller potential readership in this outfit, I'd imagine.) Oi. You were right the second time. The title is _Drugs and Low Self-Esteem_, and it was a work-for-hire for Rosen Publishing in New York. They have a series of books on drug abuse that are aimed at reluctant readers, and this is one of them. The ISBN is 0-8239-2826-8, if anyone wants to look it up; I have seen it on amazon.com. What can I say? I did it for the money... I will say that I have no particular expertise in the fields of drug abuse or psychology. I got a lot of helpful input from my wife Kala, who is a social worker. Dave Hardenbrook: ... carnal romance is fundamentally dirty and evil and must not be allowed to pollute certain "pure" Ozites (mostly the non-evil female magic workers). As far I can tell this attitude seems unique to Oz.... Dave, I don't think the attitude is unique to Oz at all. Remember what we're dealing with here is an industry that publishes fiction for children and young adults. There are examples of other contemporary children's series books (the "Outdoor Girls" series by Laura Lee Hope and the "Ruth Fielding" series by Alice B. Emerson come to mind) in which, after the protagonists married, the series failed. People refused to buy the books any more. Young people in the early part of the century liked to read about romance and adventure, and the assumption was that (for women at least) marriage precluded these activities. I suspect Reilly & Lee would have had similar fears for the future Oz if Thompson had tried something similar with Ozma. Other than that, I think I agree with Ruth Berman in the 6-22 Digest: the time to discuss Ozma's marriage (or romance) is after a book (yours or someone else's) with such a plot has been published. Otherwise we're dealing in pure speculation--which is an exercise in futility. For what it's worth, years ago (when I was a college undergrad) I tried my hand at an Oz story in which the male protagonist fell in love with Ozma, but I had planned the romance to be doomed from the start. I never finished the story because I found I couldn't stand the hero. He was a pretty sad excuse for a person, and has been banished to literary oblivion. Best, KRS ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:00:04 -0500 (EST) From: sahutchi@iupui.edu Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 05-11-99 The pronunciation kaLEEdah is used in the dub track of the 1982 Toho film directed by Fumihiko Takayama and John Danylkiw (the animated one with Aileen Quinn. The myth of the stork is alive and well, an adjunct of Monster in My Pocket aimed at girls calle "Baby Surprise in My Pocket" has the baby animal figures in sacks and an illustration of them being carried by the stork. 20,000 leagues was the distance travelled while under the sea. Did any of you see the SNL spoof with Kelsey Grammer? MGM's Emerald City, VERY PHALLIC green skyscrapers. No way. Scott ============================================== Scott Andrew Hutchins http://php.iupui.edu/~sahutchi Oz, Monsters, Kamillions, and More! "Love is not a positive emotion that begins in us and ends in the positive response of someone else. Love is divine energy that comes from God and has no end." --Eric Butterworth ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: 20th century Oz record on eBay cheap, and worth it, if you want to hear something strange... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=119787622 ===================================================== Scott Andrew Hutchins http://php.iupui.edu/~sahutchi Oz, Monsters, Kamillions, and More! "Love is not a positive emotion that begins in us and ends in the positive response of someone else. Love is divine energy that comes from God and has no end." --Eric Butterworth ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 09:02:01 CST From: "Ruth Berman" Subject: caliginous junk in Oz I sent a note to to say that in "The Wizard of Oz: The Screenplay," there are three places where the Wizard calls the Tin Man other things. When asked for a heart, he calls him "You clinking, clanking, clattering collection of caliginous junk," and when he gives him a heart, he calls him "my galvanized friend" and "my sentimental friend." I also suggested that nwdg might enjoy the Oz books, especially "Wizard," but also "Tin Woodman" and perhaps "Land" and "Ozma." Actually, for an interest in Nick, nwdg might also enjoy RPT's "Ozoplaning," but I thought four titles was enough to be going on with. I've been thinking about the problem of those few long-out-of-print Oz books for people who will want to be getting them as they become the books-under-discussion. It occurs to me that it might be helpful if some one person who doesn't have them would volunteer to act as coordinator. Then the others who don't have them could let the coordinator know that they want to buy copies, and the coordinator could ask around privately (for legal reasons, of course, no public or on-list offer can be made) to find someone who has copies of them (and a self-service copy-store in the neighborhood) and who would be willing to make copies to send in return for enough to cover the cost of one copy (and probably of a master copy to be used in making the other copies, rather than put a bound volume face down so many times over) and the mailing costs. The coordinator then could notify the would-be buyers to get in touch privately with the provider. A postscript to Tyler Jones: I think we've had pretty much the same conversation about gnomes a few times before. I get the feeling that each time you've ignored what I had to say about gnomes in the sources Baum would have known, and gone back to offering an argument based on gnomes as portrayed in "most stories" -- except that the "most stories" you have in mind are recent fiction, and not relevant to a question of Baum's meaning. Ruth Berman ====================================================================== From: Kiex@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:26:50 EDT Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-22-99 >Jeremy: >>I have a terrible, nasty, idea about why Ozma was de-aged: MAYBE IT WAS AN > >ACCIDENT!!! > >Actually, that might make an amusing story. I think I'll write it someday, I think--when I find spare time, whatever that is. > David Godwin wrote: > < avoid misunderstanding. Mark Twain never had to use them. :) >> > True, though Benjamin Franklin, in a 1789 letter to Noah Webster, proposed > adopting the Spanish "upside-down question mark" symbol for exactly this > purpose--indicating when one is writing ironically. (Of course, Franklin < might have been writing ironically, as he did in his "invention" of < daylight savings time.) Mark Twain was also great with such irony, as was LFB himself (with the rebelling ladies in LAND). <> Unk now has a website?? ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 16:59:51 (PDT) From: Dave Hardenbrook Subject: Ozzy Things BCF: John Bell wrote: >I suggest we follow Baum's development as a writer by starting with MO. Has >the Digest already digested JOHN DOUGH, YEW, MASTER KEY, and [shudder] DOT >& TOT? So far _Sea Faires_ and _Sky Island_ are the only non-Oz we've done. Ruth wrote: >If no one speaks up as having just ordered >"Cowardly Lion" and needing up to four months to have it arrive, my >vote would be for going on to "Cowardly Lion" for discussion now. How do everyone else feel about this? -- Dave ====================================================================== ] c/ \ /___\ *** THE OZZY DIGEST, JUNE 25 - 28, 1999 *** |@ @| | V | \\\ |\_/| | ;;; \-/ \ ;/ >< ] ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:45:04 +1000 From: Gehan Cooray Subject: Ozzy Things Dave: I think we should start _Cowardly Lion_ discussions in a week or so. I hope everyone on the Digest has read it. Shouldnt we discuss Baum's non-Oz books after we finish discussing the FF books and the quasi-FF books? David (Godwin): You're right. Creating _Wish Way_ was a big mistake. In that case, the Good Witch of the North should have sent Dorothy to Wish Way and told her to wish herself back in Kansas in _Wizard_. Tyler: As Ruth Berman says, I also think tha Dr.Pipts full name was Dr.Nikidk Pipt. I think he faked his death in _Road_,afraid that Ozma would punish him for practising magic ilegally. After all,in _PGOZ_ Ozma says that Dr.Pipt gave Mombi the magic powder of life. Untill next time! --Gehan ========================================================================= In all the world theres no place like home......exepct Oz ====================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:19:08 -0400 From: Michael Turniansky Subject: Lions and Tigers and Kabouters, oh, my! Ruth Berman: > The idea of Gnomes as woodland creatures is recent, > probably the result of the popularity of the "Gnomes" book -- but that > book was translated from the Dutch, and the original title was > "Kabouter," which is cognate with English "goblins," not "gnomes," > even though the concepts overlap enough in concept to make the > translation appropriate. And the development of "goblins" in English > has been so different from the "kabouter" that it would be misleading > to translate the term as "goblins". (I presented a fuller discussion of > the history of Gnomes in my Dunkiton pamphlet on the topic.) Is kabouter also cognate with kobold? Gehan: please take me off the roleplaying list, and free up Hungry Tiger and Lavender Bear. The plotline is too complicated for me to follow, so I haven't felt inclined to jump in. --Mike "Shaggy Man" Turniansky ====================================================================== From: Nathan Mulac DeHoff Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-24-99 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:03:41 PDT Tyler: Your information regarding _Oz and the Three Witches_ brings up a question that I've occasionally considered: Were the wicked witches in league with one another, or were they all working independently, but with fairly similar goals? The only book that really hints at a possible relationship between the witches is _Wicked Witch_, which states that Singra used to trade magical secrets with her cousins, the Wicked Witches of the East and West. Gehan: > I dont think Pompa aged a few years between _Kabumpo_ and _Silver >Princess_ >because he says that he will be 18 every year,on every birthday. Actually, after the fiasco at the beginning of _Kabumpo_, Pompa says that he won't have another eighteenth birthday as long as he lives. I don't know if he went through with this or not. >Are all of Baum's non-Oz books in public domain? I believe that all of Baum's books are in the public domain at this point. >I realize that animals in Oz are intelligent and can talk, but does that >apply to beetles and butterflies? I can't recall any incident in the FF in >which a bug has addressed anyone (with one very notable exception), but I >could be wrong. In _Emerald City_, Nick Chopper states that Ozian mosquitoes sing like songbirds, and that they're quite polite to people. I don't think that he ever specifically says that they can talk, though. >Personally, I think the invention of the Wish Way was a big mistake. I >mean, >if its existence and location are known, it seems as if there would be a >mass pilgrimage. Perhaps Wish Way jumps around the landscape, which is why Dorothy found it in different places in _Royal Book_ and _Lost King_. Dave: >Ruth wrote: > >If no one speaks up as having just ordered > >"Cowardly Lion" and needing up to four months to have it arrive, >my > >vote would be for going on to "Cowardly Lion" for discussion now. > >How do everyone else feel about this? It's fine with me. I'm not really particular, since I have a handy copy of _Cowardly Lion_ (and I usually don't re-read the BCF before discussing it, anyway). Nathan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 00:57:02 -0400 From: Lisa M Mastroberte Subject: The lurker returnith Hi all! I haven't posted in a while, a rather long while, for the mere reason that I really haven't thought of anything really interesting to say. Yet I return! :-) "She'll come back...they always do!" Dave: >If no one speaks up as having just ordered >"Cowardly Lion" and needing up to four months to have it arrive, my >vote would be for going on to "Cowardly Lion" for discussion now. <> I'm okay with it. I read Cowardly Lion back in October. It's not the greatest Oz book, IMHO, but passable. :::news break::: Also, I just received a message from my RTOZ mailing list which contained a bit of news--Return to Oz will be on DVD August 10! Not only that, it's in widescreen, and also contains the movie trailer, an introduction by Fairuza Balk, and an interview feature called "Fairuza Returns to Oz." If you want more info, go to http://www.dvdreview.com/news/PokeNews.asp?news_id=616 Peace, Love, Music, and Return to Oz 4eva, Lisa :-) ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:27:21 -0400 From: "J. L. Bell" Subject: bugs in Oz charset=ISO-8859-1 David Godwin wrote: <> Do arachnids count? The giant spiders in GLINDA are talkative and sly. The Wicked Witch of the West can give verbal orders to her bees in WIZARD, and the Scarecrow can do so to a spider in SCARECROW, so those bugs understand words. But Prof. Wogglebug is indeed the series' most prominent example of an intelligent insect--more intelligent than many humans. One reason Baum may not have included more talking insects is that Lewis Carroll put several into his books, even before excising the wasp in the wig from LOOKING-GLASS. Baum may thus have avoided bugs so as not to copy. On the other hand, he did have a talking spider in MO (a/k/a NEW WONDERLAND). Probably Baum just didn't like creepy-crawlies. It seems that in treating insects Ozian humans hold themselves to a higher standard than they expect of animals in the wild. In PATCHWORK GIRL, not only does the Tin Woodman forbid Ojo from taking a butterfly's wing, but no one lets the Woozy eat honeybees once he starts keeping company with humans. Yet the Hungry Tiger and/or Cowardly Lion eat bees while in the forest in MAGIC, and Dorothy is upset only because they might be Trot and Cap'n Bill. We should note that in PATCHWORK GIRL the Tin Woodman doesn't simply cut off Ojo from restoring his uncle. He closes down one option, but also accompanies the boy to the Emerald City to consult with Ozma on others. And the remedy that the Wizard offers turns out to be better than turning Unc Nunkie into a live marble statue. Also, we should recall that the emperor's decision is supported by several other respectable Ozians. The fact that some close to Ojo disagree shows that it's a difficult issue, but not that Baum meant Nick was wrong. David Godwin wrote: <> "Rely on" covers a number of meanings, including both "expect help from" and "trust the honesty and judgment of." The Wizard in WIZARD actually turns out to be more helpful than he is honest--his "dishonesty" in offering bran brains and drinkable courage is just the help Dorothy's friends want. WIZARD thus leaves us with *two* lessons about not relying on others: that we have the strengths we need inside ourselves, and that we should look for the man behind the curtain. I agree with you about how some politicians today would draw a lesson about self-reliance from WIZARD--many would also tie that into the notion of humbug rulers. My caution concerned assigning that attitude to a particular political party. One reason is that parties are less than consistent on the issue of favors from government; many politicians complain about how certain people receive assistance, yet do all they can to provide benefits for their own regions, supporters, or industries. The other is that attitudes change greatly with time and circumstances. Thirty years ago, Richard Nixon would never have used WIZARD as an allegory of self-reliance because he'd have shied from the story of a secretive leader who turns out to be a humbug. Sixty years ago, Louis B. Mayer (Republican Party chairman for California) released a movie that went beyond, "You had the power all along," to, "If I don't find it in my own backyard, I never really needed it"--hardly today's GOP recipe for growing the economy. And the Democrats who advocated stronger welfare programs never disdained self-reliance; they simply pointed out that it wasn't working for everyone. WIZARD does hinge on the notion of poor commoners being able to ask their ruler for favors just because, as Dorothy says, "you are strong and I am weak." That's an old monarchic tradition. Today it's all but disappeared formally; even when people ask for government help, we couch requests in terms of the general welfare or fairness. Yet the tradition remains in one arena, important for WIZARD's readers: children still need to go to their parents (and other adults) and ask for help just because they need it and can't help themselves. Our welfare programs reflect that young helplessness, being primarily designed for "families with dependent children" or "women, infants, and children." Ruth Berman wrote: <> Chesterton strikes me as having it mostly right. Another part of the Puritan reading of the Bible emphasized human dominion over nature, usually applied to farming the land but just as easily to exploiting animals. It was, however, the ungodly rowdiness that surrounded bear-baiting, theater, Christmas mummery, and other public entertainments that the Puritans disliked, not the fun per se. Thanks for your kind words about my BUGLE article. I most enjoyed using high-culture scholarly apparatus to discuss the low-culture topics of pie-throwing and series fiction. J. L. Bell JnoLBell@compuserve.com ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:46:21 -0700 From: Peter Hanff Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-16-99 Dear Dave and Ozzy Digesters, I was grateful for the generous spirt reflected in one of the comments about the slow fulfillment of orders by the Oz Club. The Board of Directors addressed this problem at the meeting of the Board of Directors and we are taking steps to improve our performance. As the writer speculated, for many years the fulfillment of Club orders has been handled mostly by volunteers. Over the past three years we have begun to consolidate the Club publications in a single paid fulfillment service located in Georgia. The fulfillment service has performed extremely well and promptly for us. However, there are at least six additional distributors of some Club publicatons. Over the next several months we plan to move the items held by these volunteers to the Georgia distributor. That should reduce distribution time considerably. The Board of Directors also authorized a shift from a calendar membership to an anniversary membership so that renewals won't all crash down on the Club's Administrator around January 1 each year. We are still working out the mechanics and this will not happen until the year 2000, but our hope is that by permitting people to renew throughout the year, membership work will be handled more quickly and efficiently. Sincerely, Peter E. Hanff President, The Interational Wizard of Oz Club ====================================================================== From: Kiex@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:23:04 EDT Subject: My latest Ozzy Digestion Tract Telegraph and spelling: Oops, I goofed. As Michael T. points out, a telegraph would necessitate it being spelled correctly. But I will hold to the idea that Baum spelled things more simply to make it easier for younger readers . . . <> Princess Languidere OF OZ?? She was never in Oz, as I recall . . . Difference in Types of Animal-Killing: I agree that we should make a distinction. Also between killing people in war and killing people for their heads, while we're on the subject of Princess Languidere . . . Oz and the Three Wishes: I imagine the novelty of being able to wish for anything wore off after awhile. I mean, if people have everything they need and more, they generally don't bother wishing for things, if that makes sense. Dave Hardenbrook: When a appears in a Digest (as in the 24th's submission by Kenneth Shepherd), does that mean you edited out something, or was that in the email from Mr. Shepherd itself? (It's probably glaringly obvious, or you might have answered that sometime already, but it's gotten me curious.) Until later times, Jeremy Steadman ====================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:18:55 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 05-21-99 David G: The Woozy appears briefly in _Tip of Oz_. I'm still seeking a publisher. =========================================================================== Scott Andrew Hutchins http://php.iupui.edu/~sahutchi Oz, Monsters, Kamillions, and More! "Love is not a positive emotion that begins in us and ends in the positive response of someone else. Love is divine energy that comes from God and has no end." --Eric Butterworth ====================================================================== From: jwkenne@ibm.net Date: Fri, 25 Jun 99 13:39:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Ozzy Digest, 06-24-99 > Actually, I suspect John W. Kennedy might be able to confirm that the >immaculate conception refers to Mary's arrival into this world without sin, >rather than Jesus's arrival without having been conceived through sex. Yup. And as doctrine, it's both peculiar to Roman Catholicism and very modern (Thomas Aquinas was agin' it.) >"Gnome" could just as easily mean "one who knows," especially if Baum was >pointing out the similarity to the Greek "gignoskein" (to know), from which >words such as "gnostic" are derived. Quite legitimately. The words are indeed related (although the "kno-" root pretty much vanished in other Germanic languages, beaten out by the "wis-" root). Ruth Berman wrote: >Whether Baum took the imitation from >songs actually sung by Blacks, or from white-in-blackface imitations of >Black dialect, "Lulu" still has the racism David G. complained of. I should say that, with respect to Baum's evident distaste, there is a profound difference. // John W Kennedy ====================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:49:13 -0500 Subject: Oz From: "David F Godwin" BCF: I naturally vote for going on with _Cowardly Lion_, since I have it. But perhaps a semi-formal poll should be taken. How many do not have a copy of the book, have ordered or immediately intend to order a copy of the book, and do wish to take part in the discussion? If this number is significant, then a delay is called for. If it is "none," then no delay is necessary. If we do delay on _Lion_, I vote for _Mo_ simply because it has been less than a year since I read it and I liked it a lot. Gehan wrote: >Are all of Baum's non-Oz >books in public domain? Since he died in 1919, it would seem to be necessarily so. Does anyone know any different? Scott: Thanks. I finally figured out who the Shaggy Man was in the RTOz procession. I also got ahold of that 1985 issue of the Baum Bugle that Ruth mentioned (thanks, Ruth) with the clear picture of Scraps, the Bumpy Man, and others on the back cover, but I still can't find the Bumpy Man or Rinkitink in the film. Ruth wrote: > There are >examples of other contemporary children's series books... >in which, after the protagonists married, the series failed. >People refused to buy the books any more. I also recall that L'il Abner declined radically in popularity after Al Capp decided to have his hero go ahead and marry Daisy Mae. In that case, however, it was simply a case of removing one of the main tensions of the strip. In the case of Dave's trilogy, though, there is no series to kill because these books are not part of the FF, would not published by BoW or the IWOC, and would not be considered canonical by most people. If _Wicked_ and _Barnstormer_ can't put an end to Oz books, nothing can. >I sent a note to to say that in "The Wizard of >Oz: The Screenplay," there are three places where the Wizard calls the >Tin Man other things. I looked in WWiz the book and found that the Wizard never addresses the Tin Woodman by any name whatever. Kind of disappointing, after the film. Incidentally, making photocopies of out-of-print books that are still under copyright is illegal. Kinko's won't do it. Of course, if it's a self-service machine as you specify, the copyright police are not going to come rushing in and slap the cuffs on you. Nevertheless... But it is a shame that many books are effectively "banned" because copyright holders are sitting on their copyrights and not doing anything with them long after the book has gone out of print. The only saver is that you can still buy used copies of the book. In the case of the RPT books, I would imagine that there were still plenty of places to get used copies of the Del Rey editions that have gone out of print, but maybe not (I haven't tried). - David G. ====================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:25:49 -0400 From: David Levitan Subject: Oz Newsgroup Hi, I'm trying to get an Oz newsgroup in the alt hierarchy, but am being beaten back by the people on alt.config. Even though you don't need to argue for a newsgroup in the alt hierarchy, a newsgroup won't be posted on news server in most cases if it was never discussed in alt.config. If you want a newsgroup, please help me out with fighting back the skeptics on the newsgroup that believe that there won't be enough traffic on the newsgroup. Go to alt.config, the thread is called "Proposal: alt.books.wizard-of-oz". Thank you very much. -- David Levitan E-mail: Web Page: david@emeraldcityofoz.com The Emerald City of Oz dbl@bestweb.net http://www.emeraldcityofoz.com ====================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 14:51:02 (PDT) From: Dave Hardenbrook Subject: Ozzy Things OZ TITLES: Jeremy wrote: >Princess Languidere OF OZ?? She was never in Oz, as I recall . . . Burzee isn't in Oz either, yet Eric Shanower called his book, _The Forgotten Forest *of* Oz_... Not that he had much choice -- _The Forgotten Forest *in* Oz_ would have made even less sense: Dorothy: Yikes! Where'd that forest spring up from?! Forest of Burzee: Sorry, I appear to be lost... Can you show me the way back onto the main highway to Boboland? SNIPPING POSTS: Jeremy wrote: >When a appears in a Digest (as in the 24th's submission by Kenneth >Shepherd), does that mean you edited out something, or was that in the email >from Mr. Shepherd itself? The s must be Ken's... My _modus operandi_ is to use "..."'s to denote omitted next. BCF: Well, it looks like the current consensus is to do _Cowardly Lion_ now. So unless the tide really turns in the next few days, we will start _Cowardly Lion_ next Monday, July 5. And as Jim Hacker of _Yes, Minister_ would say, "that's finally final". :) -- Dave ======================================================================